Can you share with me where there is any mention by Jesus Christ or a directive to His disciples regarding the “saving of souls”? I’ve heard this said and claimed to be the reason for churches to be focused on and yet find nothing in the pages of the bible where Jesus ever mentions anything about the “saving of souls” or sending out the disciples so that they could “save souls” either. So can you share with me where you find Jesus saying anything about this?
Next we see in the bible that Jesus states that His reason for coming was to do the will of the Father. That those that had heard from God and had been taught of God would come to Him, and that when he called them they would come and follow Him.
Jesus went among His “own” tossing out the money changers, and dealing with the religious leaders within His “own”. When we carefully examine what the bible shows us about what Jesus did and that He said that the servant is to be as his Master is… we see that Jesus shared what God gave him to speak to those that came to him, were brought to him, called him to come to them or where God sent him. That is the same “manner” in which He taught the disciples as well. His message from its beginning was that the kingdom of heaven was at hand… that the kingdom of God is within to His disciples, and that the power of God was on earth as it is in heaven… and the understanding of that.
So if today we are to be as Christ… then wouldn’t that include doing as Christ did regarding speaking whatever it is that God gives each of us to speak to those that come to us, that are brought to us, that call us to come to them… or where God directs each of us to go?
Wasn’t the disciples of Christ told specifically that they were to teach others to observe whatsoever that Jesus had commanded them and that if the people kept His words, that they would be his disciples indeed??
So if one is to be making disciples according to the bible… how would one do that not following the instruction of Jesus Christ in doing so? Where do we find Jesus saying anything about those disciples getting them a pastor to nurture those that they bring in.. or a teacher to make disciples.. to take them from the milk to the meat… or an evangelist to bring them in?
The disciples of Christ, according to the bible went out into the streets of the cities also.. .. so isn’t what you’re sharing here that is going on in what we call the church today, simply the result of people following “another way” other than what Jesus said and what it is that Jesus said that those that love him would do??
Can we fulfill the great commission by teaching and telling people to do things other than what it is that Jesus commanded when that very “great commission” clearly is recorded within the bible to have been to “teach them to observe whatsoever I have commanded ye”… which included what one was to do to be a disciple?
So again, do we discredit the bible and what its been telling us on all these points said and lived by Jesus Christ… to follow another…. or do we realize that the bible is able to be read by everyone with the ability to read… and more and more people are seeing and knowing what it is that Jesus Christ said and commanded to be done by those that love Him… and people are simply seeing the “fruits” of those that have or do worship with their lips while having their hearts very far from Him?
Isn’t so much of this going on today what is known as “anti-Christ” (against Christ and His teachings/commandments)???
Jesus said clearly those that the Father has given Him will COME to Him… He said those if a person loves Him they will keep His commandments…. He didn’t say that they would have to be brought in… or that they were to have to be “outreaches” to get them to come in….. nor did He say “if you love me… make everyone else keep my commandments”…. He knew that they would COME TO HIM and they did then and still do today!! ♥♥
Another point to consider in this is when Jesus said that those that the Father has given Him He will not lose a one.. that there is no one that will be able to snatch them from His hand… and that no man comes to Him except the Father draw them… so where do we get the idea given all that Jesus said about having “won souls” or “winning a soul”? How can we “win” something for Christ, when the bible states God has given it all to Him? How can we “win a soul” when it is God that is shown to have breathed the breathe of life into the man formed of the dust of the ground for him to become a living soul to begin with??
Surely there is much to be considered in light of what the bible has to say on these points… isn’t there???
“The Great Commission isn’t a suggestion…it is a command!
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him;”
YES it is a command that is given to His disciples as the bible clearly states…. those that had kept His commandments to them… that had forsaken all to be His disciple, and who had went even to the place he told them to go and was there waiting for him when they saw Him.
So the commandment was given to the disciples to make disciples by teaching them to do EVERYTHING I have commanded you… which was inclusive of what was required to be a disciple.
Yet how many disciples of Christ do we have out there teaching people everything that Jesus commanded the disciples in the bible beginning with what it was that one was to do to be a disciple of His as we see Peter doing in the book of Acts?
So is the commandment given to everyone… or is it given … according to the bible to Disciples of Christ???
“In the Great Commission, Jesus calls every Christian to step out in faith and spread the Good News.”
Are we discounting the bible as it is written here? You say “every Christian”..yet the bible states the commission was given to eleven disciples of Christ…. to make other disciples… so those commandments would have been given to those that were disciples first.
Also let’s remember again, unless we’re going to discount the bible that a “Christian” is what one is called by another once a person has become a disciple of Christ, after they have done as Christ did, and after they are seen in the streets of cities doing as Christ did and teaching others to observe everything that Christ commanded them to do as His disciple….
So there seems to be a lot of “commandments” of Jesus Christ that are being rejected, not followed, not taught and surely not kept by a lot of people who come well before the commandment to “go out to the nations” … including what one must do to be His disciple…
We all can read what it is that Jesus also said about breaking the “least of these commandments” and teaching others to do so as well…. don’t we??
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Let’s also remember that according to the bible God never sent Jesus out to teach or preach until after being lead of the Spirit of God into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil…. and Jesus is recorded to have sent out His disciples first to “cast out demons, heal the sick, etc”… for them to have God confirm them His words to them and the power of God with them in the earth FIRST before they were ever sent out to teach anyone else to observe whatsoever Jesus had commanded them……
So it was not just a person claiming to believe in Jesus that was His disciple. It wasn’t a person that just had “accepted Jesus into his/her heart” or said a “sinners prayer” .. nor was it a person that someone else was telling them what Jesus said was to be done… this was coming to them from Jesus Himself and if as the bible states, those that keep His commandments He will manifest Himself to them and He and the Father will come and make their abode with the one doing so…. then wouldn’t it be likewise Jesus as well today telling people who are His disciples when to go and not to go rather than man???
Wasn’t that the reason Jesus commanded His disciples all those years ago now to go out and teach others to observe whatsoever He had commanded them…. so that by them keeping HIS commandments, that He would manifest Himself to them…. and He and the Father would come to them and make their abode with the one doing so…. and it would be Jesus and the Father sending them out as well…. no one else???
So how many people do you suppose today that are out there in our world telling people about Jesus, preaching the Gospel and the rest that have never had Jesus manifest Himself to them through them keeping His commandments FIRST themselves and them becoming HIS disciple FIRST??
“And How Shall They Hear Without a Preacher” (Romans 10:14) “
We don’t have to have a preacher today do we? Don’t we have the written words of God given to Jesus Christ in the pages of the bible? Do we not have the commandments of Jesus Christ in those pages that tell us that to those that keep His commandments Jesus will manifest Himself to them, and that He and the Father will come and make their abode with the one doing so???
See, people are saying and have been for a very long time now that we have the writings and that they are the word of God… that they contain the words that God would have us to know and that have been preserved for us all to know the OT writings that spoke of Christ and what was done by Christ, His commandments, and what was done as well afterwards until the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given by God to Christ to share with His servant.
Today, and for a very long time now, we’ve had ALL of those writings… so unless they are NOT the words of God and His Christ… are not able to be trusted.. and are not able to provide to us the commandments of Jesus Christ, and the directive that those that love Him will keep them and to those that do keep them HE will manifest Himself and the Father and Christ will come to the one keeping them and make their abode with the one doing so….. then we have a “preacher” today…. don’t we???
See once again .. we would have to discount so much of what is said to be believed about the bible…. what has happened after Paul said those words or wrote them down and the compilation of the writings completed and distributed for us to be in need of anything more than keeping His commandments as they are given in the page of the bible (word of God) for Him to manifest HIMSELF to those doing so and Him and the Father made their abode with the one doing so…. to then take it from there… right???
In fact, doesn’t the book of John state clearly that the one that witnessed these things had made a true record of them and shared it in that one book so that those reading it would believe ??
John 19:35 (NIV)The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
Isn’t it upon the mouth of two or more that the words of Jesus Christ come to us in the pages of the bibles we have today? So the question should be asked then… if we have the two or more telling us and their words are true and accurate and record not only what it is that they said and they heard from the mouth of Jesus Christ …. and His words are written in red in most of our bibles, leaping from its pages so as not to be missed or ignored…. so what more is it that would have need of than the written testimony given of what Jesus said to follow them and keep them to have HIM MANIFEST HIMSELF to the ones doing so?
Wouldn’t we have to discount the writings as not being trustworthy…. not being able to share with us what Jesus said and commanded today…. or that Jesus cannot be trusted to MANIFEST HIMSELF to those keeping those commandments today to need a preacher, teacher or anyone else to share with us HIS WORDS and HIS COMMANDMENTS .. than those two or more that we have in the writings in our own bibles???
Surely this is something to consider isn’t it???
“Read Acts 1:8 and get back to me. “
Okay… I have and here it is. This is the writer of Acts account of what went on with the disciples of Christ when Christ appeared to them after His resurrection.
“Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
So again this is what is recorded to have been said to Jesus’ disciples.. what they did and what it was that they were to do AFTER this happened to them…..
So this is exactly what I’m sharing.. these were first disciples. First they had become His disciple by following the commandments that had been given to them including what was to be done to be His disciple. They had not only walked with Him and been taught by Him for about three years, they had seen first hand and were witness that the power of God was with them in having been themselves casting out demons, healing the sick, etc… before they were told by Jesus to wait for him in that place where He manifest Himself to them AFTER the resurrection because again they had kept HIS commandments.
It was at that time… Him manifesting Himself to them AFTER the resurrection that He spoke to them telling them these points of what was to come afterward with the Holy Spirit.
However the key points here are that they had kept His commandments…. and He had manifest Himself to them AFTER His resurrection, just as He said He would and TODAY we have the writings of two or more “witnesses” on the fact that not only He said that those that keep His commandments that HE will manifest Himself to them…. but that He did so to them as well…. again … as John had said in the reason for him making a record of it… so that “you also may believe”!
Beautiful isn’t it!! ♥♥
“Second, you must witness because you love the unsaved (if you don’t, you should).”
What do you mean here? How can a person witness what one has not seen for Himself? We have the writings of two or more witnesses in the pages of our bibles… right?
What is it that they seen that they are bearing witness of? They seen the power of God on the earth with men… beginning with Christ… and then with themselves.
They heard Jesus tell them His commandments and that those that love Him and keep them that He would manifest Himself to them… and all that He told them come to pass just as He said it would.
They wrote down, according to John those “testimonies” or “witness” accounts of what they seen so that “you may believe”… not because they loved “lost souls” and wanted them saved….. but for what reason… so that “you may believe” and keep His commandments so that He will manifest Himself unto those doing so as He had done with them.
We have been told for years that the bible is trustworthy.. that it is without question the word of God and that it is accurate and true.. and yet John tells us that his record was given so that people would believe… and keep His commandments so that He would manifest Himself to others as He had with them… and yet today… we have those words… those very same commandments… and who it is that is bearing “witness” today of Jesus having manifest Himself to them as a result of them keeping those very commandments?
If one is to make disciples… and teach others to observe whatsoever Jesus commanded them… and that is the means by which Jesus is shown to have said He would manifest Himself… and those writings tell us that two or more bear “witness” that He did just that… then can anyone today “bear witness” as those disciples did that have not first kept His commandments to have Him manifest Himself to them???
So today.. if we are not finding people with a bible and the ability to read it for themselves… and see that it is the witness of two or more of what it is that Jesus is said to have done and commanded… and they are not following His commandments as a result of reading those two or more witness accounts … not believing in those writings and those witness accounts to even follow what it is that they say to see if Jesus does manifest Himself to them… isn’t that “witness” or “evidence” that of their own doubt and unbelief in the two or more witness accounts in the pages of the bible being true and accurate in the first place?
So again.. can we witness something that we have not seen … isn’t that what a “witness” was in the biblical record…. wasn’t these people sharing with us, including Paul what it was that Jesus said to them AFTER His resurrection… and AFTER they kept His commandments given to them???
Would this be the reason that we have so many today waiting on the return of Jesus Christ.. when the bible we all are able to read has been sharing with us the “way” to which when followed and kept because one loves the FATHER that sent Him that He would manifest Himself and come with the Father and make their abode with the one doing so?????
Surely is another point for consideration given what the bible states Jesus said as well.. right???
“What does Jesus Christ say about the one who is ashamed of Him? (Luke 9:26) How should this affect your witness?”
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father’s, and of the holy angels.
Look at what Jesus is saying here… ashamed of me and of MY WORDS… so the point Jesus is making is being ashamed in not keeping His word or having them and not keeping them.
Look for a moment with me back to Adam in Genesis… Adam had the words of God to him.. and immediately when he went against them.. what does it say… he seen himself naked and was ashamed/afraid….
Being afraid, ashamed, guilty within each of us occurs when we know what it is that we are to do and go against it. When we have the word of God or His Christ and know what they are and are not keeping them or don’t ourselves… how can that be love when Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments as I have loved the Father and kept His commandments… and wouldn’t that indicate one being “ashamed” of Him and His words?
Or as we see illustrated in the bible.. to have His commandments today in the pages of our bibles, know what they say…able to hear them and read them and then turn from them because of “cares of this world” or “have a new wife and must return to care for her” or “have a family member that just died and need to go back and bury him”. Isn’t that what we see in the pages of the bible that happened in many cases?
Isn’t this what we also see in the pages of the bible how the “sheep” were separated as well. Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and another they will not follow…that when He calls His sheep they come and when they hear His voice they know it and will come and He will lead them out??
So I can understand someone today thinking that being ashamed of Christ means being ashamed to be a “witness” for him in the sense of what so often is done in Christianity… but when we look at the bible account of what it says a “witness” was.. it was a person that had first hand experience not only with the power of God on the earth but witness as well of the manifestation of Christ to them as a result of having kept His commandments…. and for the life of me I cannot find one record in the bible of one that had such an experience being “ashamed” about that part…. in fact, they were doing so, even being beaten and arrested for it… so according to the bible…. it is “ashamed of me and my words” in the sense of having them and not keeping them FIRST.
Cause I surely see no evidence in the writings where those that kept His commandments to them and He manifest Himself to them and they seen Him after his “passion” was ashamed of telling anyone about it… LOL
“If you are faithful to follow Jesus, what did He promise to do? (Matthew 4:19) How has he helped you do this? “
There is far more to the keeping of the commandments of Jesus Christ outlined in the pages of our bibles. The “promise” is that He will manifest Himself to the ones that do so…. that He and the Father will come to the one that does so and make their abode with him….
So if the object is that those that are taught by God and hear and learn from God will come to Christ and they will keep His commandments (word of God-given by Him) resulting in Him manifesting Himself to them…. and the Father and Christ coming to the one doing so and making their abode with them….and today we have the “way” and the “words of God-given by Christ… unless we are discounting the bible and what it has within it… then why would be “fisher’s of men”??
See you seem to discount that in the day that Christ said that to His disciples… there was no writings of His words or His commandments at that time. There were no disciples of His… in fact this is what was said to Peter and Andrew who were fisherman when Christ called them to come follow … and to whom “straightway” left it all behind to follow him….
Yet again… Peter is also shown in the bible to have kept the commandments that he knew and had been a faithful to them at the time that Jesus said to him ‘come follow me”. We also see that Jesus told the young man coming to him inquiring how to have eternal life, the first thing Jesus said was “keep the commandments”.
So it was to those that had been faithful in little that had been given to them already that much more was given…. right?
So today…. with the bible.. and with the two or more witnesses that we have of what it is that Jesus said and did… and the “little that has been given”… isn’t it to see whether one will be faithful in the “little that has been given” …. and be given more… or if the little that one has will be taken from them as the result of not being “faithful in the little that is given”.. ???
Wouldn’t it be the person today, having the bible, the words of Jesus Christ within its pages, the “word of God” made flesh, upon the mouth of two or more that would be ashamed of Him and His words if they are not keeping them and being faithful in the little that has been given????
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Hbr 3:5 And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
As Hebrews outlines here in this passage it was being faithful as a servant for a testimony of those things which were to be SPOKEN AFTER… this is the same thing the we see with the disciples. They were faithful servants to keep what Jesus commanded them and for a testimony of those things which were to be SPOKEN AFTER His resurrection by Him to them…. as well a testimony of things which were to be spoken after them as well….
So yes, by all means one is required to be a faithful servant even in the little that one is given or one has….. or even that which one hath, according to Jesus will be taken!!
“God WILL find His own. No one comes to God save the spirit draw him.”
Well to be honest with you it’s not God that has “lost” anyone to have to “find” His own… He draws them to come to Christ, leads them and guides them and gives them the way to eternal life (know thee, the one true God and Jesus Christ) so the “drawing” is to come to know Him (eternal life) as Jesus said.
” Now that being said, God has his voices and messengers on earth to take His Gospel to the world, but we as a church have elevated evangelism to the point where we have developed tactics and strategies and methods of reaching reaching… that are above and beyond.”
Well this is the point that I have to question given what it is that the bible says and what it is that so many have been telling us so long now that it contains. We have His words, we have the words of the messengers He sent, we have the word of His Son that He sent and said upon the mouth of two or more that He was well pleased with and commanded men to “hear Him”.
So unless we are going to now say that the bible is not to be trusted, that it does not give us the words of God, the words of His Christ and the “witness” testimony of two or more, of God’s words given to Jesus to speak….. that according to God was to establish a matter in terms of life and death.. (upon the mouth of two or more witnesses)… then what else would we have need of today in the means of messengers, voices, prophets, etc?
See it seems to totally discount the bible and what it shares with us today to have people saying that we still need messengers or voices or prophets, teachers, preachers, evangelists, when we have the bible.
We can’t be claiming out of one side of our mouths that the bible is the word of God, that it can be trusted that there is a belief in it that it is in fact the word of God to His Christ that was shared all those years ago now… and that those that keep them for themselves as evidence of their love of God and His Christ.. that Jesus will manifest Himself to them when they do so as it states and then claim by our actions it not to be so… can we?
If there was given some, apostles, prophets, preachers, evangelists… then those are all found in the pages of the bible are they not? Was Paul speaking in his day of what was to come in the future… or sharing his understanding of what it was that he knew of the OT writings … cause according to the OT, we had pastors, teachers, evangelists and preachers all within those pages… right??
So I’m with you on the point that the church today has developed tactics and such to do the reaching reaching, above and beyond.. but what I also find is that in doing so and in putting the focus so much on becoming preachers, teachers, prophets, and evangelists, today they are discounting the very ones that God had already given… the writings in the bible as being sufficient for one to believe, as if those were not sufficient in conveying the “word of God” that became flesh… and was manifest to destroy the works of the devil among those that kept His commandments.
It’s just difficult for me to reconcile Jesus saying in those pages upon the mouth of two or more that those that keep His commandments that He will manifest Himself to them… and that to the one doing so that the Father and Christ will come and make their abode with…. and having those words and the commandment of Jesus to His disciples to go out all those years ago now teaching others to keep those very commandments that He had given them for the same reason… so that to others that love Him and the Father, that keep His commandments that He would likewise manifest Himself to them…. and we have those very commandments and all those writings… and yet people still seeming to see that we still need preachers, teachers, prophets, evangelists etc.
Now if there had never been any compilation of those testimonies/witness accounts…. and we did not have them today…. then I could see and understand the idea and concept of having to have “oral” traditions continue where someone else was having to tell us what it was that they heard Jesus say because in those days it had not been written down… but now today…. all these years after so many are so confident that holy men of God were guided to assemble those very words and put them into what we have today called our bibles.. and so many so confident that they are in fact the very words of God and His Christ… what more in the way of prophets, evangelists, preachers, or teachers would we need to hear from or have the witness and testimony of for us to love Him and keep His commandments for Him to manifest Himself to those doing so???
Wouldn’t we have to reject the bible as being what its said to be… as well as reject Jesus’ own words within its pages that come to us upon the mouth of those two or more witnesses to be waiting on another or His return after He’s given the “way” that He said again (upon the mouth of two or more) that He would manifest Himself???
Surely we have to give this some consideration… don’t we????