Free Will?? Consider this…

Posted on July 7, 2000 by Denise

Free Will…. Consider this!

The teachings of God giving mankind a free will needs some close consideration by everyone. First of all, is this free will given for all choices that we have to make, or just in a limited few? Secondly, if God gave us a free will to make choices how can there be any punishment or consequences in using what God has given us all? We are going to take a look at a couple of things that we need to consider in the “free will” teachings that so many have accepted and promote.

1. If God gave us a free will, what did He give us the freedom of will to choose?

Did God say that we could choose our parents, the place and time of our birth, or whether we never were born? Did God give us the freedom of will to choose whether we grow up or not, or are tall or short? Did God give us the freedom of will to choose whether we ever sin or not? Or did God just give us freedom of will to decide if we would serve Him or not? See for God to have given man a free will, it would have to apply to all things, all decisions, in all matters for anything other than that is not a free will, but a limited choice. If the free will was given in all things and in all matters, then how is it that God could give us that free will choice and then punish us for making the wrong one? Why would God who has a divine and perfect plan leave it subject and it’s success depends on the decisions that you or I would make, or the decisions that others make in such matters.

2. When did God give us this “free will”?

Did God give each of us at the time of our birth this free will? Did we get it before we were born or at some time after our physical birth here on the earth? Did we get the free will at a certain age? Does the free will come only when we make a profession of faith in God, or at some other specific time? We know that a person doesn’t have a free will at birth or there would be many that would have chosen not to be born. We can easily see that free will didn’t come before birth or some wouldn’t have been born, and surely there wouldn’t be any one born with disease or birth defects… for who in their right mind given a choice on that matter would choose such. We know that we don’t have a free will while we are living with parents, guardians or even as adults in any country either. Try exercising your free will in regard to being a teenager and wanting to stay out past a curfew or to not attend school. No free will choice in those matters… there is always a cost and a consequence attached to not doing the will of others. We can clearly see that even as adults in America that we still do not have a free will, or there would be many that would not be paying taxes, registering for the military, attending school, working, and many other things… so when does this free will that God is supposed to have given us begin?

3. If God gave us a free will, what does a free will really mean?

Free will indicates that there is a will within each of us that we have and that we have the freedom to use it to make decisions about our life. Free implies that there is no cost, consequences or punishment for our choices whatever they are. They are free! So let’s see if a free will is really even possible. Is it a free choice that we can make about our birth, the color of our hair, how tall we are, where we are born, and to whom we are born to? Do we get a free will choice about anything where there is no cost, consequence or punishment for using this “free will”? It doesn’t take much consideration to see that any choice or decision that is made is not “free”… there are always costs, consequences, and yes even punishments in making some of those choices. How can we say or teach or tell others that there is a free will that God gives to mankind, but it’s only to make one decision in life, and that when we make that one all other choices in life are made for us. How is that a free will?

4. If God gave us a free will, why can’t we use it and make a decision never to sin?

This is something that still baffles me about the teachings of free will. God can give me a free will to make choices in my life and yet I cannot use my “free will” to decide not to sin against God. I can use it to decide whom I will serve, but once I decide that I cannot decide anything more than that and no matter what decisions I make with this “Free will” that I will always be a sinner and never be able to escape the use of “free will” in the actions of Adam.. so where is the “free will” in any of that. If God gave us a free will why can’t we use it to decide not to accept the sins of Adam and therefore never be sinners? Why can’t we use the free will and choose not to ever die, sin, or be tempted? Why can’t we use the free will and decide other things in life???

5. If God gave us a free will to make choices, do they only apply to a limited group of us?

Does this free will that God is supposed to have given each of us give us the right to make choices about ourselves and those of others? Can I use my free will and put everyone in heaven? Can I use this free will and choose to have people who I don’t like go to hell? Can this free will be used to decide when I want to go to heaven to be with God and who I want to go with me when I go? Can I use this free will to choose whether I even want to go to heaven or hell… as well as whether I want to serve God or not? Can I use this free will and choose to change the very plan and will of the Almighty God who is supposed to have given me this free will and in doing so made His entire plan and purpose subject to ME?

It’s clear to see when we put some serious questions to the test of the free will of man given by God that it’s clearly not possible. It’s not possible for God to have given any of us a choice in the matters and purpose of His will and even though there are many people who will teach, preach and insist that we have a free will and can make choices in our lives, it’s those very same people who must answer with honesty the questions here… if even to themselves and see that there is really no “free will” where God is concerned… it’s only a teaching of men to elevate mankind above that which is called God!!

For those of you that still insist that you have a free will and that God has given it to you, let me ask you this… then why not use it and go on to heaven? Why not use that free will and change the world to a Godly world? Why not use that free will and decide that you’re not going to be sick, diseased, or grow old and die? Why not use that free will and change the height you are, or the color of your eyes… or choose to quit breathing when you want to? Why not use the free will and choose anything? God is the Almighty God, creator of all things, in control of all things including your choices, and you, or He is no God at all. You can’t have a Sovereign Almighty God that is subject to… or whose plan is contingent on the decisions of those that He created…controls.. and sustains with the very breath of life.. and to think so is to simply reduce God to being no God at all!!

Consider what you’ve been taught and who has taught you such! Ask God and be honest and forthright enough to ask Him about “free will”. Ask God if He gave you any choice in any matter… and let Him be the one to share with you who He is and whose will is paramount in HIS PLAN… He will be more than glad to share it with all!

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Free Will?

Posted on July 7, 2000 by Denise

Free Will??

The centuries long teachings of men is that God has given all mankind a “free will”, and that we have the opportunity to use this free will to decide what we will do, either serve God or not? But we have to see the deception in that thinking and why it’s so critical to understand and see it for what it is, deception. So let’s examine this “free will” doctrine.

First, for God to have given us a “free will” means that He would have given likewise to Adam. That Adam would have had a free will to decide to obey God or not. Was it a free will? I ask you, what was free about it? Free will gives the indication that you can make a choice that’s free. Free from consequences, or cost. Free from punishment, and free from any type of reward or reproach, so is that what God gave to Adam? Was Adam able to make a free will choice to “partake” without any cost, punishment, reproach, or consequences? I think not. The cost for the decision that Adam made was of great cost. Not only did it cost Adam his place in the garden of the provision of God, but it also cost him the close fellowship that he experienced with God. Was it a “free will”?

Secondly, for God to have given us a “free will” it would have had to include more decision power than just eternal destination. It would have had to be a “free will”, a means to decide all aspects of life, like what day we were born, whether we were born or not, who our parents are, where we were born, as well as the color of our hair, skin, and the height and weight that we would be. Those all represent having a “free will”… choices in life. Also the “free will” would have also had to include the choice to go to heaven when we want to, as well as to go to hell without any consequences. It would mean that we can choose when we leave this place, and by what means. Isn’t that what a “free will” is all about??

We can easily see that those things were not left to the discretion of any of us, and if it were, what would that say about God’s perfect plan? How could we say that God was God, and His plan is perfect if it’s contingent on the decisions of the creation, instead of the definite plan of God? How would God be God if the plan designed by Him could be influenced and changed for the whole world based on the decision of each of us? For that matter, just one of us? What impact on the perfect plan of God would it be to have one of us choose with no cost or consequence something outside of what God deemed?

Then we have to look at the examples in the bible. We see so many of them. Research them for yourself, as well as other documents about the traditions and customs of those days which clearly defines the lack of a “free will” for mankind, especially for those claiming to serve God. We see with Adam, no free will, but consequences of “thinking” that he had a free will. Then we see that offerings were given as “sin” offerings for “free will”.. or the thinking of, and use of that thinking of free will, instead of the will of God. Then we see Jesus, saying, “not my will, but thy will be done”, “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” and Mary saying, “be it unto me according to your will”. Clear examples to name only a few of the fact that God doesn’t allow mankind a “free will”. Nothing in life is “free” and that comes directly from God. How could we say that God is our Lord, and yet we have a choice not to do what He directs? Doesn’t that make Him no God at all?

Yet then comes the final consideration. If God gave mankind a “free will” then how is it that anyone could believe that God would give man a “free will” to decide, then punish the man by sending him to hell for not choosing correctly. We see the words of God to men in the bible.. “choose this day whom you will serve” and most people have claimed that to be an “option” or a “free will” choice… but look closely at it… it’s not an option.. it is a command of God!! As is the words of Jesus, “I have set before you life and death, choose life”.. no option.. a direct command. Not your will but the directive of God! Men have taught that God gave us a “free will” to choose as a means to justify mankind as having some value separate and apart from God, but how can that be? Why would an Almighty God, creator of all things need to give a “free will” to what He created, without first declaring by doing so that He’s no God at all? The basis for the “free will” doctrine is in direct opposition to the attributes of the Almighty!

Did God give man a “free will”? I think it’s clear to see that the answer is no. Did God give man a will? Sure, we are created in the image and likeness of God, and God has a will also! God’s will is the way it is to be done on earth as it is in heaven. If you want any part of heaven the requirement is simple, “not my will but thine be done”! If you want to have “hell” on earth, and never enjoy the benefits of life, then do your will… fight against the will of God.. the one that you claim is Supreme, Almighty, and All Powerful! Try it and see just how far you get! You will see clearly and precisely that you don’t have a free will, it will cost you greatly…. there are many words recorded in the bible that makes that abundantly clear… like “woe to the rebellious children who take counsel but not of God, who add sin upon sin”…”let those people alone, for if their counsel is not of God, they will fail, but if their counsel be of God, you will find yourself fighting against God himself”, as many others recorded in the bible during their lives. So I ask you, how can you claim that God is God, that His will is perfect, and yet claim you have a “free will” to decide anything that would change all of that? To even think that there is a “free will” given of God to man, is to make God no god at all! Think about it.. and Ask God! Ask him a simple question, “Did you give me a free will that I can choose whatever I want, and there will be no cost or consequences?”. If there had been a “free will given to man of God”.. then there would have been no need for sin offerings… and never for a sacrificial lamb … Jesus Christ… for there would have been no wages of sin… and nothing for Jesus to have been sent for!!

Ask God!! Hear Him.. and not the traditions and teachings of men that make God.. no God! “Not my will but thine be done”… Jesus’ words.. the very ensample of God!

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Did Adams transgression make all men sinners?

Posted on July 3, 2000 by Denise
Did Adam’s Transgression make all men sinners?

There are many in our world today that believe that by the transgressions of Adam that all men are sinners and go about to try to convince all men of that.. and their need for a Savior from those transgressions. How can that be? Let’s not take either position in the matter… but to look at both and ask God!

For the sake of the debate.. let’s begin with the side that Yes, Adam’s transgressions made all men sinners and in need of a Savior. If that was the case and it did.. then do we throw out the words of the bible that tell us that God created all men in His image and after His own likeness? If all men were created in the image of God.. and all men are sinners because of Adam, then that would seem to mean that God was a sinner and created Adam in that image… which is the basis for why Adam was a sinner and had the capacity to transgress or sin in the first place. Then we have to look at the fact that if God created all in His image.. and yet Adam’s nature was that of sin… or transgression then who changed the nature of Adam. Some would say that Adam’s nature changed when he transgressed, but how can one’s nature change without the hand of God, who created him in the first place? Wouldn’t that mean that Adam has power to change his nature without God? Yet some will say that they believe that the “clay has no power over the potter” so how could Adam have power to change his very nature without God? And if God changed the nature of Adam after creating him in His own image, why would He? Where is it recorded that God changed the nature of Adam, and if God changed the nature of Adam, wouldn’t that mean that God made a mistake… or that He really didn’t make Adam in His own image after all??

Then we must look at what happened as a result of the transgression. Does the bible say that because of the transgression that all men would be therefore transgressors after Adam? Nope.. the bible speaks that there was a blessing in Adam’s case… God cursed the ground for Adam’s sake. It’s not punishment when someone does something for your sake! Then we see that God didn’t cast Adam out of the garden or away from the provisions of God, but God put a barrier between Adam and the tree of life.

Then we see in the bible, it records that death reigned from Adam to Moses… so where did death go?? If the transgressions of Adam.. and death that resulted as the transgression reigned only from Adam to Moses… did God change back the nature of mankind once again?

Then we have to look at the “Savior”! The sacrifice that was given by God to a rebellious people to cover their transgressions. So if Adam could make all men sinners, wouldn’t it seem to reason that what Jesus did in covering the sins of the world that all men would then become righteous? Seems that there are a lot of people who want to claim that Adam made us all sinners, yet refute the very idea that if Adam had enough power to make us all sinners by what he did in transgressing what God told him, that Jesus in doing what He did.. and not transgressing God could make all men righteous! Why is it so difficult to accept, when so many are willing to accept what Adam did and yet deny the very redemption that God sent to cover the sin of that one man.

Then we find that the bible records that by the offense of one, sin came to all men and death, yet by the obedience of one, eternal life! Doesn’t eternal life go without saying that there is no more sinners… and that by what Jesus did that all have eternal life.. even if you believe that Adam’s transgression made all men sinners… shouldn’t you likewise be willing to accept that if one man taken from the ground could make all sinners, that yet another man resurrected from the ground… could make all righteous?? Something to think about… ????

Now let’s look at the idea that Adam’s transgression did NOT make all men sinners! There are some that would immediately refute the idea of this thinking that it in some fashion would take away the idea of Jesus Christ and what God did. It’s as if to say that without Adam we couldn’t or wouldn’t have Jesus, which has become the foundation for so many denominations which aren’t following even what He taught, which is yet another entire topic all together and will not be addressed further here.

So if Adam didn’t make all men sinners, then it would stand to reason that the words that Jesus spoke were true. That He came not to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners. Meaning that there were some righteous here that had no need of repentance and were not sinners when He came. Then we’d see that there was some basis for the bible recording Noah, Abraham, Enoch and others in the bible as “righteous in the sight of God” and that once again was not in need of repentance for they were not in sin! There was no transgression.

Then we would have to look at transgression. The bible, which so many claim, without hesitation is the word of God, says that without the law there is no transgression, knowing that the law was not given to the righteous but to the unrighteous. So if the law was given to the unrighteous.. and stated so… then there must have been some righteous that needed no law.. and wasn’t under the transgression of Adam. We also see in the bible where the disciples of Jesus asked him regarding a blind man, “who has sinned, him or his parents?” But look at that verse…the disciples wouldn’t have asked it if they knew that because of Adam all had sinned.. they would have just accepted it that all were sinners and would have also got in line for healing themselves.. and would have been compelled by their own beliefs to also “repent” which there is no recording in the bible that they did. No the disciples understood that the transgressions of Adam had not befallen all men, they were asking who it was that had sinned or transgressed God! They knew it wasn’t by the actions of one that all became sinners… and wanted to know which one had sinned to result in the affliction that cause the blindness. See the disciples knew that sin or the transgression of God is what results in blindness… they were just wondering who it was that had done the “sin”!

Then we have to look at many other places recorded in the bible.. for if the transgression and the teachings of the bible are the basis for what so many people believe then we have to use that basis for a means to examine and reason regarding the issues we are discussing here. The bible records many places where there is evidence that Adam’s transgressions didn’t pass along to all men… even in the recordings of the Old Testament the sins of the fathers were passed on to the other generations of those that HATED GOD.. not to all men… then we have to look at a very key point in this also… the statement of so many that God doesn’t hear the prayers of a sinner!

So now if God doesn’t hear the prayer of a sinner, and all have sinned after the similitude of Adam then why would there be any need at all to pray? God isn’t going to hear it anyway.. right? Then we have to look at those that will quickly refute that by saying “I know that God hears my prayers and answers them” and the words of Jesus Himself which says that God hears and answers prayer! It would seem that either God does hear the prayers of sinners and Adam made all sinners or that God hears the prayers and answers them cause there are no sinners!! It surely couldn’t be both ways… Right.

Then we have to look at the concept that God only hears prayers of “repentance” and all are sinners. How can one repent and then sin again which puts you in the mode of “repentance” again so why would you even try to pray for anything other than repentance if the transgressions of Adam remain? If the transgressions of Adam remain, then what was it that the Savior did?

It would seem entirely ridiculous for God, the creator of all things, the Almighty, All knowing, all-powerful, all present God to have created a being, in His image, changed the image, gave him a law, allowed him to transgress it.. and pass that transgression and the subsequent punishment on to all other created beings, and then send His only Begotten Son, perfect and sinless to be the “deliverer” or “Savior” and then leave the world in the same sinful nature condition it was before the “Savior” was sent? What good would any of that have been? Surely God.. the Almighty wouldn’t do that and make the very life, death and resurrection of Christ worthless…now would He??

It’s time to think! If the transgressions of Adam made all men sinners, then surely the life of Christ made us all righteous? If the transgressions of Adam didn’t make all men sinners, then the life of Christ made those that had transgressed righteous and gave them eternal life… and in either case… all are righteous!!

Well at this point, there are assuredly some that will say that you have to “accept” Christ and what He did to be part of the “righteous” and other things, yet if that should be the case.. then does that mean that likewise one would have to “accept that Adam’s transgression made all men a sinner” and because of that one would need to “accept” the deliverance from the transgressions! Since you didn’t have to “accept” what Adam did to make all men sinners, surely you wouldn’t have to “accept” what Jesus did to make all men righteous! Then again, even if you believe that you do have to “accept” what Adam did, and you are of the mindset to accept that.. then why wouldn’t you likewise “accept” what Jesus did for all also? Wouldn’t that be like saying that you have to accept that you have cancer to accept the cure for it.. and if you do accept that you have cancer, what sense would it make not to accept what will cure you from it?? In either case… it’s easy to see that “not all have sinned after the similitude of Adam”.

Think about it! It doesn’t take much thinking to see that even in this debate there is no position or side to take either.. but that the end result is the same. If you believe you are a sinner and needed a Savior.. He came and therefore you aren’t a sinner any longer.. and if you believe that you haven’t sinned because of what was done before you got here or if you just simply don’t believe either .. the result is the same! So why the debate??

Seems so many spend so much time debating about things that if we’d just stop the debating long enough to do some thinking.. we’d realize that there is no basis for the debate at all, because the result is the same!

Think about it!! Ask God!! As Him, “God did you make us in your image, change that image or allow it to be changed into a sinful nature, refuse to hear our prayers, and let us in your kingdom in that state, send your perfect sinless son, let him go to the cross, die a horrible death, resurrect him from the dead, let him be seen for many, and send your Holy Spirit so that we could all remain sinners, and in our same sinful nature as we were before He came?” Ask God.. He’s sure to tell you!!!

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Is it wrong to judge?

Posted on April 3, 2000 by Denise

This is a question that based on the teachings of Jesus Christ that I’ve asked many times and had asked of me many times over the years.  Jesus’ instruction to His disciples was to “judge not”… and yet then we see Him stating ‘judge righteous judgment”.

So are we to “judge” teachings, situations, and even people?? Many seem fearful of making judgments, and unclear if this is the mission and duty of the church, to do so. Is it wrong to judge and if the scriptures are to be used for correction, reproof, instruction in righteousness, etc…. then shouldn’t we be looking very carefully to what it is that they show us??

A point that so many seem to have missed again from the opening pages of the bible is that God’s commandment to man was not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil from any other source. As Jesus said He spoke only what it was that God gave him to speak, telling His followers to “judge not”… wasn’t about being in fear of using proper judgement or reasoning… or lack of understanding of God’s will… it was about hearing  from God and not partaking of the knowledge of good and evil from anyone else.

We can say that scripture is useful for correcting such conditions… but how can we use scriptures for correction and instruction in righteousness if it tells us that we’re to live by what comes from the mouth of God himself to us and not partake of the knowledge of good and evil from any other source??

We all are very much aware that just about anyone can use some segment of the bible to justify their actions or point to this or that scripture and their own understanding of it… or lean on the understanding of someone else about it… to determine what is right and wrong.. good or evil… but isn’t that having missed the message as well? Isn’t that still taking of the knowledge of good and evil from one’s own understanding of even the bible… rather than simply hearing whatever it is that God has to say on the matter directly from His own mouth about it as those in the bible say was to be done??

Even righteousness outlined in the pages of the bible began with what someone heard from God…. and either did it (righteous) or did not do so (unrighteous). So if we look to the scriptures for correction, reproof, instruction in righteousness that so many say they believe them to be… then we have to recognize that the instruction in righteousness always begin with hearing from the mouth of God whatever it is that GOD has to say on it… not our judgement… not our understanding… not leaning on our own understanding.. or that of any other… or even a group…. because any decision as to what is right or wrong for us to do… any thou shalt not or thou shalt is to come from the mouth of God!!

Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

This passage tells us not to judge according to appearance… but judge righteous judgement… so righteous judgement will always begin with what comes from the mouth of God about any situation or person… and each of us living by whatever it is that proceeds from the mouth of God to us as Jesus example was.

What we also have to realize is that within each of us, from our beginning, is the abilities and capabilities to know what it is that we are to do and not to do, without having to have that come from someone else.  That is what the opening pages of the bible has been sharing with its readers for centuries now, that so often seems to have been missed, ignored or overlooked, and yet is the echoed in the passages where Jesus tells His disciples, that “the kingdom of God is within you”… and that “the Father knows what ye have need of before ye ask”… and so many other passages in the bible that tells us that God provided all that would be needed within each Himself.

So when we encounter any situation, its not like we have to stop, pray, ask God or grab our bibles and search for passages within it to know what it is that we are to do… or what it is that we are to refrain from…. that comes from within each of us.  It is just that man from his beginning, as the bible records, was told to trust that, and NOT partake of the knowledge of good and evil from any other source…. not to hearken to the voice of another… and yet that is what we’ve all been taught to do, and have been practicing in our lives for years now, all the while saying that doing so was the reason that man was separated from God, and how “sin” entered the world, as outlined in the opening pages of our bibles.

So what we have to do is to “stop” doing what it was that Adam did.. and learn once again to trust what it is that we hear from the mouth of God, what God writes in our own hearts, and on our own minds, what it is that we know from within ourselves and the abilities and capabilities within us all…. as is in all things!!

Doing this is what Jesus states in the pages of the bible that was His “way”… He did whatever it was that God gave him to do, could do nothing in and of himself, spoke whatever it was that God gave him to speak…. and knew what others were doing or thinking from within (God)…. “the kingdom of God is within you”… and surely if the kingdom of God is within, then there is nothing lacking in the kingdom of God, and we have all the abilities and capabilities that having the kingdom of God within us would include… Right??

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Why no sinner’s prayer?

Posted on March 2, 2000 by Denise

First of all let’s take a look at what most people call the “sinner’s prayer”.

“Dear Lord, in the name of Jesus, I come before you. I know that I am a sinner. I know that Jesus is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection from the dead has made my salvation possible. I ask you to cleanse me from all my sins by the blood of Jesus, from every sin from the day I was born until this very moment. I believe the Bible is your true word, and that by our word and my belief and confession that I will be saved. I surrender my life to you, and ask you for salvation through Jesus Christ. I want Jesus to come into my heart to be the Master and Lord of my life from this day forward. I thank you God for saving my soul, in the name of Jesus. Amen”

Then most of the “printed” versions of the “sinner’s prayer” goes on to quote Romans 10:13, “for, everyone that calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”. Then follows the words, “Congratulations! You have been accepted into the Body of Christ” So now let’s see why no more “Sinner’s Prayer”.

If the sinner’s prayer, the repetitive words that many today say to be part of the body of Christ, was necessary, why didn’t God put them in the bible? We see many other words, and instruction, but never a “sinner’s prayer”. So I ask you .. why if a sinner’s prayer is so important and it must be said to be accepted into the body of Christ, why didn’t God record it in the bible?

Now let’s look at the elements of the “sinner’s prayer”. First element, “you must say that you are a sinner“. How can that be? How can you claim to be a sinner, and then follow it with the words that you believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and that His death, burial and resurrection from the dead made salvation possible? How can you be a sinner if you believe what you just said… and that it made salvation possible?

The next element, “asking God to cleanse you from all your sins by the blood of Jesus“. Okay, now what was it that Jesus did, and what did the blood on the cross do? If you believe that He was the Son of God, that his death, burial and resurrection from the dead made salvation possible, how is it that after all Jesus did that you still need to be cleansed from your sins? If death is the wages of sin, and salvation means that you’re saved, then what Jesus did over 2000 years ago took care of it… didn’t it?

Next element, “I believe the bible is your true word, and that by my word and my belief and confession, that I will be saved“. Okay, now here is a tough one…. First you’re going to say that you believe that the bible is God’s true word, like if you don’t believe it, or say that it is the word of God, then it’s really not? Then by what you say, and what you believe and confess, that you are saved? But I thought you just said that it was what JESUS did that made salvation possible? If you’re going to say to God that you believe what Jesus did made salvation possible, then how does what you believe, say or confess save you? Didn’t you just say that salvation was made possible simply by what JESUS did? Does it really matter whether you believe it or not? Doesn’t that Jesus did it, make it possible?

Next element, “I surrender my life to you, and ask you for salvation through Jesus Christ“. How can you surrender your life to God? Then ask for salvation through Jesus if it was done for you before you got here? Unless of course you’re going to try to convince us that you’re over 2003 years old, or that what Jesus did missed you. Wasn’t it already done well before you were born? How can you ask for something through Jesus Christ, when Jesus already did it? And to surrender your life to God? Is He God or not? How can you surrender to God what God created, and is in full control of? Well maybe if God really isn’t God, or really didn’t do what He said, you could surrender to Him…but why would you? If He hasn’t kept His word to this point, why surrender to Him?? Think about it???

Next element, “I want Jesus to come into my heart to be the Master and Lord of my life from this day forward”. Well if Jesus is Lord, and Master, and the Son of God, as you already said you believed He is, then how can He be Lord and Master? What is it that He is Lord and Master of unless it’s you, part of God’s creation? If Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, that pretty much covers us all, and all that will ever be, or have been! Well doesn’t it? That was the title that God gave HIM before He came, and it remains today, and that too was done well before you were born! So why ask God to do what He’s already done, or Jesus to be what He already is??

Now for the final element, “I thank you God for saving my soul, in the name of Jesus. Amen” Thanking God… well that’s always something that we should do, but for saving your soul? Think about what the other elements have said you believe.. and when it was done? How could God save your soul, when your soul was born sinless and cleansed by the blood of Christ when you arrived? How is it that if you believe that Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection made salvation possible, that it wasn’t for all of us? If it was for all of us, then why thank God for only yourself? Why thank Him for saving your soul, when He’s the one that breathed into you life to make you a living soul in the first place?

Think about it! How can anyone today say a “sinner’s prayer” with the elements that so many claim must be in a “sinner’s prayer” and yet not deny the very thing they claim they must believe to be “saved”? Isn’t it clear to see that there is no more “sinner’s prayer”? Only those that deny Christ came in the flesh, went through that death, burial and resurrection that would be sinner’s in the first place! Is that what you are really saying? Are you denying Christ? I don’t think so…. and I’m sure that if you’re here reading this message, you’re not 2003 plus years old, …so when did Jesus make salvation possible??

Don’t follow the traditions and teachings of men, ASK GOD! Hear HIM! Realize that if you continue 2003 years after God sent His son and Jesus did what you claim to believe that He did.. and still call yourself a sinner.. or let anyone convince you that you are a sinner, then it’s simply a denial of Christ, and the redemptive work that Jesus did on the cross!! How could God send his only begotten son to die on the cross, resurrect him from the dead, and leave the world in the same sinful condition that it was in before Jesus came? Wouldn’t that be God making Jesus worthless?

Think about it! Ask GOD… and HEAR HIM!! If Jesus is the Son of God, and HIS death, burial and resurrection made salvation possible.. then it’s done.. and has been done.. and you were never a sinner to need to say a “sinner’s prayer” in the first place!!

In closing let me ask you this, as God asked Adam in the garden of Eden, when Adam was hiding from God… God said, “who has told you that you were naked”…. Who told you that you were a sinner? God or man??

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Q&A- Do I need to say a sinner’s prayer?

Posted on March 2, 2000 by Denise

Q. Do I need to say the “sinner’s prayer” to be forgiven of my sins?

A. No. There is no “sinner’s prayer” in the bible. There is no mention by Jesus Christ for anyone to say a “sinner’s prayer”, either.

You are not a sinner, based on the words found in the bible, nor because someone else, thinking that you are says so.  You are to know this from God, and if there is something that you know within yourself that you are not to do that is a “sin” that God makes known to you, then it will also be God that will make known to you whatever it is that you should do to be forgiven for it!
For more on this question, see the article “Why No Sinner’s Prayer”

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Are all men sinners?

Posted on March 2, 2000 by Denise
Did Adam’s Transgression make all men sinners?

There are many in our world today that believe that by the transgressions of Adam that all men are sinners and go about to try to convince all men of that.. and their need for a Savior from those transgressions. How can that be? Let’s not take either position in the matter… but to look at both and ask God!

For the sake of the debate.. let’s begin with the side that Yes, Adam’s transgressions made all men sinners and in need of a Savior. If that was the case and it did.. then do we throw out the words of the bible that tell us that God created all men in His image and after His own likeness? If all men were created in the image of God.. and all men are sinners because of Adam, then that would seem to mean that God was a sinner and created Adam in that image… which is the basis for why Adam was a sinner and had the capacity to transgress or sin in the first place. Then we have to look at the fact that if God created all in His image.. and yet Adam’s nature was that of sin… or transgression then who changed the nature of Adam. Some would say that Adam’s nature changed when he transgressed, but how can one’s nature change without the hand of God, who created him in the first place? Wouldn’t that mean that Adam has power to change his nature without God? Yet some will say that they believe that the “clay has no power over the potter” so how could Adam have power to change his very nature without God? And if God changed the nature of Adam after creating him in His own image, why would He? Where is it recorded that God changed the nature of Adam, and if God changed the nature of Adam, wouldn’t that mean that God made a mistake… or that He really didn’t make Adam in His own image after all??

Then we must look at what happened as a result of the transgression. Does the bible say that because of the transgression that all men would be therefore transgressors after Adam? Nope.. the bible speaks that there was a blessing in Adam’s case… God cursed the ground for Adam’s sake. It’s not punishment when someone does something for your sake! Then we see that God didn’t cast Adam out of the garden or away from the provisions of God, but God put a barrier between Adam and the tree of life.

Then we see in the bible, it records that death reigned from Adam to Moses… so where did death go?? If the transgressions of Adam.. and death that resulted as the transgression reigned only from Adam to Moses… did God change back the nature of mankind once again?

Then we have to look at the “Savior”! The sacrifice that was given by God to a rebellious people to cover their transgressions. So if Adam could make all men sinners, wouldn’t it seem to reason that what Jesus did in covering the sins of the world that all men would then become righteous? Seems that there are a lot of people who want to claim that Adam made us all sinners, yet refute the very idea that if Adam had enough power to make us all sinners by what he did in transgressing what God told him, that Jesus in doing what He did.. and not transgressing God could make all men righteous! Why is it so difficult to accept, when so many are willing to accept what Adam did and yet deny the very redemption that God sent to cover the sin of that one man.

Then we find that the bible records that by the offense of one, sin came to all men and death, yet by the obedience of one, eternal life! Doesn’t eternal life go without saying that there is no more sinners… and that by what Jesus did that all have eternal life.. even if you believe that Adam’s transgression made all men sinners… shouldn’t you likewise be willing to accept that if one man taken from the ground could make all sinners, that yet another man resurrected from the ground… could make all righteous?? Something to think about… ????

Now let’s look at the idea that Adam’s transgression did NOT make all men sinners! There are some that would immediately refute the idea of this thinking that it in some fashion would take away the idea of Jesus Christ and what God did. It’s as if to say that without Adam we couldn’t or wouldn’t have Jesus, which has become the foundation for so many denominations which aren’t following even what He taught, which is yet another entire topic all together and will not be addressed further here.

So if Adam didn’t make all men sinners, then it would stand to reason that the words that Jesus spoke were true. That He came not to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners. Meaning that there were some righteous here that had no need of repentance and were not sinners when He came. Then we’d see that there was some basis for the bible recording Noah, Abraham, Enoch and others in the bible as “righteous in the sight of God” and that once again was not in need of repentance for they were not in sin! There was no transgression.

Then we would have to look at transgression. The bible, which so many claim, without hesitation is the word of God, says that without the law there is no transgression, knowing that the law was not given to the righteous but to the unrighteous. So if the law was given to the unrighteous.. and stated so… then there must have been some righteous that needed no law.. and wasn’t under the transgression of Adam. We also see in the bible where the disciples of Jesus asked him regarding a blind man, “who has sinned, him or his parents?” But look at that verse…the disciples wouldn’t have asked it if they knew that because of Adam all had sinned.. they would have just accepted it that all were sinners and would have also got in line for healing themselves.. and would have been compelled by their own beliefs to also “repent” which there is no recording in the bible that they did. No the disciples understood that the transgressions of Adam had not befallen all men, they were asking who it was that had sinned or transgressed God! They knew it wasn’t by the actions of one that all became sinners… and wanted to know which one had sinned to result in the affliction that cause the blindness. See the disciples knew that sin or the transgression of God is what results in blindness… they were just wondering who it was that had done the “sin”!

Then we have to look at many other places recorded in the bible.. for if the transgression and the teachings of the bible are the basis for what so many people believe then we have to use that basis for a means to examine and reason regarding the issues we are discussing here. The bible records many places where there is evidence that Adam’s transgressions didn’t pass along to all men… even in the recordings of the Old Testament the sins of the fathers were passed on to the other generations of those that HATED GOD.. not to all men… then we have to look at a very key point in this also… the statement of so many that God doesn’t hear the prayers of a sinner!

So now if God doesn’t hear the prayer of a sinner, and all have sinned after the similitude of Adam then why would there be any need at all to pray? God isn’t going to hear it anyway.. right? Then we have to look at those that will quickly refute that by saying “I know that God hears my prayers and answers them” and the words of Jesus Himself which says that God hears and answers prayer! It would seem that either God does hear the prayers of sinners and Adam made all sinners or that God hears the prayers and answers them cause there are no sinners!! It surely couldn’t be both ways… Right.

Then we have to look at the concept that God only hears prayers of “repentance” and all are sinners. How can one repent and then sin again which puts you in the mode of “repentance” again so why would you even try to pray for anything other than repentance if the transgressions of Adam remain? If the transgressions of Adam remain, then what was it that the Savior did?

It would seem entirely ridiculous for God, the creator of all things, the Almighty, All knowing, all powerful, all present God to have created a being, in His image, changed the image, gave him a law, allowed him to transgress it.. and pass that transgression and the subsequent punishment on to all other created beings, and then send His only Begotten Son, perfect and sinless to be the “deliverer” or “Savior” and then leave the world in the same sinful natured condition it was before the “Savior” was sent? What good would any of that have been? Surely God.. the Almighty wouldn’t done that and made the very life, death and resurrection of Christ worthless…now would He??

It’s time to think! If the transgressions of Adam made all men sinners, then surely the life of Christ made us all righteous? If the transgressions of Adam didn’t make all men sinners, then the life of Christ made those that had transgressed righteous and gave them eternal life… and in either case… all are righteous!!

Well at this point, there are assuredly some that will say that you have to “accept” Christ and what He did to be part of the “righteous” and other things, yet if that should be the case.. then does that mean that likewise one would have to “accept that Adam’s transgression made all men a sinner” and because of that one would need to “accept” the deliverance from the transgressions! Since you didn’t have to “accept” what Adam did to make all men sinners, surely you wouldn’t have to “accept” what Jesus did to make all men righteous! Then again, even if you believe that you do have to “accept” what Adam did, and you are of the mindset to accept that.. then why wouldn’t you likewise “accept” what Jesus did for all also? Wouldn’t that be like saying that you have to accept that you have cancer to accept the cure for it.. and if you do accept that you have cancer, what sense would it make not to accept what will cure you from it?? In either case… it’s easy to see that “not all have sinned after the similitude of Adam”.

Think about it! It doesn’t take much thinking to see that even in this debate there is no position or side to take either.. but that the end result is the same. If you believe you are a sinner and needed a Savior.. He came and therefore you aren’t a sinner any longer.. and if you believe that you haven’t sinned because of what was done before you got here or if you just simply don’t believe either .. the result is the same! So why the debate??

Seems so many spend so much time debating about things that if we’d just stop the debating long enough to do some thinking.. we’d realize that there is no basis for the debate at all, because the result is the same!

Think about it!! Ask God!! As Him, “God did you make us in your image, change that image or allow it to be changed into a sinful nature, refuse to hear our prayers, and let us in your kingdom in that state, send your perfect sinless son, let him go to the cross, die a horrible death, resurrect him from the dead, let him be seen for many, and send your Holy Spirit so that we could all remain sinners, and in our same sinful nature as we were before He came?” Ask God.. He’s sure to tell you!!!

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Q&A- Are you a sinner?

Posted on March 2, 2000 by Denise

I have designated this part of the website to cover some of the questions that I’m frequently asked and the answers for them based on what I’ve come to understand..

Again, before you accept these answers as being for you, ASK GOD! Jesus’ example was that he live by what God gave him to do and what God gave him to speak. The bible states if we lack wisdom to ask God. So make sure that whatever you read here, whether you agree with it or not, that you ASK GOD!!

Q. Are you a sinner?
A. No. We have to consider where this idea originated from. Who has told any of us that we are sinners, is the real question that needs to be answered for oneself.

Christianity has convinced many that all are sinners, yet in the book of Genesis, we see where Adam listened to another voice, and did what another told him to do regarding God and that is what resulted in him being cursed and how Christianity says “sin entered the world”.

Yet Adam is shown to have been hearing from God and knew from God what it was that he was to do and not do before he encountered the other “voice” in the garden in the first place.

So one has to determine what one knows first, within himself before “hearkening to the voice of another”, and answer a few other questions before as well.

So begin by asking yourself this question? Who told you that you were a sinner in the first plac??, Man, or God?

If your answer is as mine was, man, and never God…. then we have to ask ourselves why it is that we’re “hearkening to the voice” of another in this matter and have put our trust in man rather than God?

For more on this question, see the article “Are all Men Sinners”?

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Suffering in the flesh?

Posted on March 1, 2000 by Denise

When we understand what it is that suffering in the “flesh” means… how it all began, we are then able to understand much more fully the “lesson/message” of the bible.

When we look to the opening pages of the bible, we see that the “suffering in the flesh” was a direct result of having hearkened to the voice of another who was NOT GOD and when against what it was that Adam knew he was not to do.

The “suffering in the flesh” of Adam began within Adam.  His eyes were opened and he seen HIMSELF differently… he seen he was naked and for the first time was ashamed.  His “suffering in the flesh” was within him and as a result of what he was suffering within himself, he began doing things as a result of that “suffering in the flesh” for himself, his wife, and hid himself (or tried to) from God.

We can see that Jesus “way” … was to keep the commandments that God gave him… to do and say whatever it was that God gave him to do and say… without being influenced to turn away from doing so no matter what man said to him, did to him, or what other temptation that came upon him to try to convince him to do otherwise.

So when we look to what it is that the “suffering in the flesh” was.. we see that it was the direct result of hearing from God and knowing what it is that we’re to do from within ourselves and allowing someone, something, no matter what it is to influence us, tempt us, beguile us, manipulate us to TURN AWAY and HEARKEN TO THE VOICE OF ANOTHER.

When a person drawn of God to Christ, begins to put Christ’s teachings foremost in his own like, disciplining his daily living according to them, it is when we begin to see the level of “flesh” (another voice in our garden) that we’ve been “:hearkening” to one’s entire life.. and the influences of that “flesh” upon us and our actions and way of living… and turn from it and have it all “crucified”.

Each time that Christ, knowing what it was that the Father gave him to do and to say encountered other voices in the garden, the time of temptation, the Pharisees, people in the cities, even His own disciples, there was opportunity to “hearken to another” and as a result “suffer in the flesh” … or in other words suffer within himself as a result of having hearkened to the voice of another who was not GOD and based on something that was outside himself, rather than from within!

Try reading the commandments of Jesus Christ and keeping them today and you’ll find more and more “Christians” trying to convince you that they are not to be followed… that we don’t have to keep them today… and trying all they can to get people to turn from them and hearken to the voice of another…. so that is what the “flesh” is… that is where the “sin” originated… meaning it is the hearkening to the voice of another who is not GOD and doing what they say is to be done…. that we turn from what it is that God says is to be done or not done…

So yes, one has to put Christ and HIS teachings/commandments ahead of all the ‘flesh desires”… the desire of others in this garden with us….trying to tell us what it is that we are to do or not do to be like God, what it is that God knows or doesn’t know..that try to get us to question within ourselves what it is that we KNOW from the mouth of God and to go against that to do what they say… or serve “flesh” rather than God.

That is what Christ endured that wound up getting him nailed to the cross. He was not willing to hearken to the voice of any other… not willing to live by the “flesh” the words of any other …. and refusing to do so is how the “flesh” was crucified…. which happened with Jesus Christ long before the cross. For in the time of his temptation… before being sent out into the world….the “flesh” was crucified… for he refused to allow anyone or anything, no matter what promise or threat made .. nor how much he suffered as a result… to turn him from what it was that He knew God said to Him!!!

Peter was the same… he understood that when one is no longer willing to hearken to the voice of any other.. that one is hearing from God for himself, being taught of God and having God himself reveal to them what they are to do and not to do… and they are doing so… then they too have ceased from sin!!!

For as we’ve all heard and been taught from the beginning….. the “sin” that was done in heaven and on earth was to hear from the mouth of God what was to be done or not done.. and hearken instead to the voice of another and go against what it is that one knows for himself/herself from the mouth of God!!!

So if we are to end the “suffering in the flesh” that so many of us are experiencing today… if we are going to bring an end to the struggles that are happening within so many of us, and the people in our world, we’re going to have to understand the wonderful lesson from the pages of our own bibles of how that all began… what started it all… and not repeat it again and again.  We are going to have to trust what is within us… hearken not to the voice of any other in this wonderful garden here with us…. and understand that each and every time that we find ourselves “hearkening to the voice of another” who is not God, about matters pertaining to God, our relationship with God, what it is that God would have us to do, or what God knows, then as a result of doing so we will “suffer in the flesh”… we will “take on flesh” or “put on a covering that is not a covering” and be following the “way” of Adam… rather than the “way” of Christ!!

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Q&A: Are you an ordained minister?

Posted on February 3, 2000 by Denise

Q:  Are you an ordained minister?

A:  No!

I get this question a lot, mainly I think because most seem to think that a person sharing what Jesus commanded in the pages of the bible to be observed by those that love him are “ministers” and therefore are ordained.

I questioned God on this point directly many years ago when I was first lead to leave the church, because what was familiar to me and the “tradition” that I was familiar with at that point was that when God had someone leave their church it was usually to attend seminary and be ordained.  It wasn’t so for me… and even though I knew it wasn’t with assurance, I didn’t consider that in the pages of the bible there is no mention at all of anyone, including Jesus Christ, being “ordained” by anyone other than God.

So guess if hearing from God and doing what God said was to be done was the example of Jesus and others in the bible… it’s not God that is going to be concerned if I’m not.  Right?

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