| Discussion on taking the bible as it is written….. | Feb 6, ’11 8:41 AM for everyone |
Recently at the site of a friend, (thank you Doc) a discussion on the topic of Faith was started. Several of us were discussing the various teachings from the bible on faith, and the discussion migrated into whether the bible is to be read as it states, or not.
Many, myself at one time, are convinced that the writings in the pages of the bible are addressing those of us that are alive today, and that they mean things in which they do not specifically state, and apply to those that they do not specifically name.
For those interested in reading the blog where this discussion started, you can do so at the following link.
Doctrine: Faith (Doc’s Site)
HOWEVER, please… anyone that visits and reads what is there… PLEASE do not post a comment there. All comments are to be directed here to this blog after reading what has been posted there. Doc has requested that no more discussion on this be posted in his blog so please honor that request.
I’m posting this blog here on my site so that Janet and I can continue our discussion and so that others that have been reading along on Doc’s blog can comment if they would like to do so.
So here is the last response that Janet made… and this is where I’ll pick up the discussion. Thanks again Doc, and all those that were part of the original discussion.
Hiya Doc…I was just reading through Denis’ posts…I’ll just post this short reply then
“Many” is a Biblical idiom that often means “all.” Daniel 12-2 speaks of the general resurrection and states, “And MANY of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” So here we know that “many” means “all.” Of course we know that on the last day everyone will be resurrected, not just some people. ”
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denise wrote on Feb 6, ’11
Janet, I understand that you think that terms like “many” are just “biblical idiom” and you believe that they mean things other than what the writer is conveying to us in his own writings, but that in itself is to bring discredit to the writer and to make them appear that they did not know who it was that they were speaking of, or what they were speaking about, and brings into question that if we cannot take what the bible writers say, as it is written… what use is there to read any of it and think that it will bring any “instruction in righteousness” to anyone… when as you seem to think, the terms being used can mean entirely something different than “as it is written”.As with your own example… you show a passage that states that “many” will do this… and shows that others will do something else… and yet then you tell me that in this situation that “many” means all… so my question, given what you’ve shared here and in light of the passage you post…. will ALL AWAKE to everlasting life, or ALL to shame and everlasting concept? Or does “many” mean “many” as the writer says, and of that “many” he refers to, will be to everlasting life, and others to everlasting contempt with the possibility being that “MANY” shall also not awaken at all?
So how is it that we can know from this writer.. and his own understanding of what he wrote of, that he really meant something other than he actually is shown to have written?? If we cannot take what it is that is actually written in the pages of the bible, and read them as they are… individual writings of supposed individual people, who are writing of their own individual experiences, etc? Is this not saying that in essence nothing in the bible should be trusted at all… none of the writings… because they can mean whatever it is that any one else says they do, and applied in whatever way one sees fit to do so to fit into their own tradition and understanding?? See this is as I mentioned before something that don’t make sense to me. So many claim that the bible is the infallible word of God, that God has had his personal hand in seeing that these words come to mankind, that they are instructions in righteousness, and yet the very ones that often make these claims and say this about the bible…. are the ones that seem to discredit what it says, by saying that it means this or that.. or that words that someone wrote really means something other than what is in the pages of the bible? So how is it that God could have his hand in bringing all of this to mankind…. and yet have so much of it being totally rejected by those that say they believe this to be so?? That when a writer says “many” that he really means “all” and that when a writer tells us specifically who he is speaking to, where they were, and why it is that he is saying what it is that he is saying, that it is to be totally ignored, and applied to those alive today when it wasn’t said to them, and to do so is to discredit the writings and the writer as well? Can you explain to me how you see this not being a discredit to the writers and the writings that are in the pages of the bible??? |
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drg5609 wrote on Feb 6, ’11
In my opinion means simply that the following are my personal thoughts and are not open for discussion.
There are many, many lessons that can be learned from reading the pages of the Bible and applying the lesson of that writing to everyday life. Or we can sit back and pick apart everything that was said, this word means that, and this means this. When you do that you miss out on many of the lessons that are taught from Genesis all the way to Revelation. But then that’s just my opinion, what do I know? |
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denise wrote on Feb 6, ’11, edited on Feb 6, ’11
drg5609 said
Thanks Don for your comments…. but this is a discussion…. it is for sharing ones views… no matter what they are.. and discussing them one with another. Anything shared is a personal thought, opinion, or what one has come to understand and learn from his own research of a topic, no matter what it is, or what he has been convinced to believe without having done his own research, but either way, it is each person’s own opinion and understanding. The sharing of those things is what a discussion is…. without the mandate to have to make “converts” or have someone “prove” another right or wrong. OR at least to me that is what a discussion is about… and why I enjoy having them on those terms.So thanks for sharing what you have… and I agree. There are all sorts of lessons that many writings provide us when we read them and follow what lessons they teach. Its no different than picking up a recipe card and wanting to bake a cake. If one believes the writer of the recipe card is providing the instructions on how to do so, then one follows those instructions and determines whether one can bake a cake by doing so or not. Its all about “knowing”.
What is difficult for me to understand…. and why I ask people questions about things that they claim to know and believe in, is how, like with this… that a lesson of the bible can be learned when one is willing to change what the writer is saying? To me that would be like taking what one claims to be a recipe for a pineapple cake… not follow any of the instructions in it.. and then think that they will have learned how to bake a pineapple cake. When one says that these words are the words of God, preserved by God’s own hand for the whole of mankind to know and understand something from…. how is it that those things can be altered and the words not mean what the writers are shown to have written, or how will any lesson that is intended to be learned from them, be learned if all the words really mean something other than what the writers wrote? I think we all can agree that throughout our lives there have been many writings of various sources and writers that we’ve all learned valuable lessons of life by not only reading but gaining understanding of through reading and studying them. We read as children books that teach lessons… but we’re not having to prove the existence of all those that are contained in the writing, nor do we have to change the words to make it fit something that the author isn’t saying at all…. nor do we discredit the author by saying that when they say they were in Rome in their day… speaking to one group of people, that they identify, that we call them a liar and say that they were speaking to all of mankind for all times. This is the part that never has made since to me and why it is that when a person says that they believe that God has had a hand in the writing of the bible, that I question then why is it that they think that the words of the writers are not to be taken as they are written…. but rather how others say they must be taken… and why that is not and would not be in itself a discredit to the writer of each book in the bible, as well as to the God that they say had a personal hand in making sure to have preserved for all to know. So do you see it being possible for the lessons of the bible, from Genesis to Revelation to be able to be understood and to teach someone something if we change all the words that the writers are shown to have written….. or should we take them for what is written… whatever it is that we have in those writings as they are written, in your opinion and experience?? |
In my opinion means simply that the following are my personal thoughts and are not open for discussion.
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catherine wrote on Feb 6, ’11, edited on Feb 6, ’11
(I love your new background dear Denise. Multicolored little pieces of Rocks, all shaped by the passing of the Water, It is nice. I find it very calming. Take care.)
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gabriel wrote on Feb 6, ’11
Hiya Denise…. I’ve just popped in for a minute as I’m going out… and it’ll be late when I get back so I’ll answer your post tomorrowGod Bless
Janet |
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denise wrote on Feb 6, ’11
gabriel said
God Bless Janet Thanks Janet…. ♥
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calum33 wrote on Feb 6, ’11
Why not keep the complete Works of Shakespeare by one’s side as well? It too is full of lessons that we can all learn from. It is better than the bible in that it is not fouled up with the religious element.
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rena wrote on Feb 6, ’11
This is interesting but it took about twenty seconds before the pebbles had my head splitting. This getting old crap is for the birds.
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
calum33 said
Yes, Malcolm, I agree.. there are many literary works that have throughout history taught many great lessons to humanity…. and if any of them have been significant in our personal lives we do tend to keep them around for that reason. However, we also do not have to claim that they were written by or preserved by the hand of God to be able to read them and garner from them whatever lessons of life it is that they share with us either.IT just seems that so many get caught up in trying to say that the bible is written by God, was preserved by God for mankind, and a lot of other claims, that really when examined closely don’t seem to have been anything that was ever heard from God directly, nothing that God ever is shown to have told any prophet about that would happen in times to come….and even more strangely for me…. is that if people really did believe such, why in the world would so many want to change what it means, say that its writers meant something other than what is written… and reject so much of it for themselves.
See this is something that I personally had to come to terms with myself… as I’ve shared with many. I never heard from the mouth of God that this book or collection of writings and writers was written by God, or that any God had any hand in getting it to where we have it today. I never read any passage in any of its pages where any prophet spoke of a time that this God would be silenced, unable to communicate with his “creation” and that He would bring together a group of men that would be lead to pick and choose what was to be included in a collection that would be deemed the “word of God” for all of mankind from that point forward. That this God, would then expect everyone to read it so that they would know what it was that God wanted humanity to know… or do… or any of that. It just simply wasn’t in the collection prophesied by anyone… and yet where had such an idea come from??? The writers, whomever they are in the pages of the bible, write of hearing from the mouth of God, or having a knowing about something from within them, and either following it or not… and the results of such. They all are writing of their own personal experiences of their own day… based on whatever their understanding was in that day… and yet all throughout the collection, the writers seem to echo the same thing… man is to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God…. and that it would be God himself that would not only write his laws in their hearts and minds, but that had happened from the beginning….. and yet this “theme” of the bible had to be rejected and all the writers who conveyed it as being their own practice, if now there was some collection of writings that one was to read as if all of their own writings were lies. That this was not possible…. so therefore could not be today. As I personally began my own examination of this concept…I soon came to realize that all of this had been just claims that others had passed down to me… that it was simply what others had taught and convinced me of …. and yet in the very opening pages of the bible, it shows clearly that man’s misery, shame, guilt and sin, was the result of “hearkening to the voice of another’… letting someone/something else convince a person to go against what he had heard for himself from this God, and follow what they said, rather than what he knew within him. It was simply following the “similitude of Adam” as had been done in the beginning… and the very thing that Christianity had always taught that was the reason for this “downfall” of man, and “sin to enter the world”… and yet do not seem to realize, as I did not… that to take anyone’s word for the bible we have today being written by, authored by, preserved by, or whatever by this God…. was to be “hearkening to the voice of another” on this point as well. Now if this was really the reason that Christianity says that sin, guilt, shame, misery, and death entered the world…. that when man hearkened to the voice of another on matters pertaining to God …. started all of this… then what sense does it make or would it make… knowing this and believing this to believe anything about this God from anyone other than the very mouth of this God?? Is taking someone’s word on these things….. and letting traditions continue to convince us of these things…. not simply rejecting the entire collection of writers and their message? Is it not repeating the very same thing that this Adam in the beginning did himself that so many say is what brought “sin” into the world and separated mankind from this God??? What sense would it make to continue this idea …. and miss the lesson of the entire collection…. or not realize that it is rejecting the writers and what they all convey in their writings, as the “lesson” for mankind…. to do so? Has what you refer to as the “fouled up with the religious element” not simply been the result of it not being taken as it is written? Meaning… religious traditions have deemed it to be something other than it really is, and in doing so, put the focus more on who is supposed to have written it, inspired it, or whatever one wants to claim about it to make it authoritative, while missing the entire “lesson” of it?? |
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
rena said
Thanks Rena for stopping in… sorry the pebbles made you have a headache…. 🙂
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gabriel wrote on Feb 7, ’11
Hi Denise,First of all your arguement is that we should take the Bible just as it is written, without bothering about the various senses any given passage contains…Is this correct?
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
denise said
From generation to generation we have been taught believe what I believe and be saved.
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
gabriel said
First of all your arguement is that we should take the Bible just as it is written, without bothering about the various senses any given passage contains…Is this correct? No.. that’s a question that I’m asking …. Janet… I want to understand how it is that people see that we have the writings and what they say and whether they should be read as they are written… or if what they say should be totally disregarded as if not valid.For example.. if the writer of the book of Romans specifically states in the opening of the writing that he is addressing a group of people that were in Rome in that day, should we take what is written and realize that the writer is telling who it is that he was addressing, or should we take it that he’s lied in his writings and is addressing those of us alive today??
For another example.. if the writer of the book of Exodus, tells us that God directed Moses in specific terms as to who it was that the commandments in stone were to be given to….. do we take the writer as it is written on that point… and know who it is that the writer said those commandments were given to…. or do we discount the writer and what is written and say that they were given to men and women alive today? Or for another example.. when the writers of the NT state that Jesus was saying to his disciples something… do we take those words as being only to the disciples as the writers tell us… or do we take them to be applicable to anyone alive today as if the writers telling us these details are to be totally ignored? |
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, Lady.. that is what I have personally come to understand myself.. that my trust was not in any God about such things… for nothing on these matters had I heard from God… it was always from someone else based on what they themselves had been taught and convinced to believe.That’s what I seen repeated in the bible also…. that from generation after generation people who were able to hear from the mouth of God, refused to do so and taught others this tradition to the point that they as many of us were “lost” from what was within us.. and had been from the beginning. That it was the “curse that the bible refers to that was passed down to the third and fourth generation of those that hate God”… meaning had turned from what they knew from within… and followed traditions of men, instead of what they had the ability to know for themselves.
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
gabriel said
First of all your arguement is that we should take the Bible just as it is written, without bothering about the various senses any given passage contains…Is this correct? Janet a bit further on this point…. what I want to understand is for example… as you’ve said to me that you personally believe that God had a hand in preserving what we have in the bible today so that mankind could know what God expects of us and what we are to follow…. and yet …. how is it that if that is the case… that we have to change what is actually written if the idea was to make sure that mankind knew what God wanted?It just makes no sense to me how a person can believe that God had a hand in preserving them, and yet has done so and gotten them to us today, in a manner in which we cannot simply read them and know whatever it is that God wanted mankind to know without having so many “interpretations” and so many people, like yourself saying that they really don’t mean what they say they do.. that you have to follow what traditions have taught rather than what the writings actually say. To me, that sounds like you’re saying that God had a hand in preserving something that really isn’t preserved at all, but is up for any private interpretation that anyone would like to apply to them.
This is what I want to ask… how is it that so many can say they believe that God had a hand in making sure that these words… these writings we have today… as they are written…. and see them unable to be read and understood without having to have people tell one another what they mean, or that they really don’t mean what they say… or like when Paul says that he’s writing to a group in Rome certain things… that we’re to disregard that portion and apply all that Paul is said to have written to THAT GROUP of people… and apply it to all people for all times, past, present and future??? |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
denise said
One must do the work of understanding the historical era of when the book was written.
The problem is taking the NT and trying to validate the Messiah/Son of God of Jeshoua with the OT. Christians have intertwined the two ad nausem while not understanding one wit of the history of the times. The Bible is just a scrap book or a poor history book. |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
denise said
There is an estimation of at least four writers of Exodus.
The Elohim, Yahwehist, Priestly writers. Then the redactor writer who put them all together and tried to make sense of it all by his writting. |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
denise said
I want no part of the vengeful or jealous God as presented in many religious perspectives.
I will take the view the Eternal is within me and the divine spark flows directly with in and without this beautiful creation.I will go back to my blog, Denise, “The Lie of My Imperfection”. It is a put up job of many constructs and generational conditioning. We re of the Eternal which is good and perfect. We are loved and need to re remember we are infinite beings. This is not coming from any Bible who questions our worth and people of grace. If you think you are sinful from infancy, no wonder “evil” is moved through consciousness. |
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
Do you find this to be because traditions have been believed, taught and mandated to be accepted, rather than one having his own understanding of the historical era of when the books were written, or trying to intertwine the two as a result of traditional teachings rather than one doing his own work of understanding??
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, this is another point that I think we have to consider…. there is a lot of various views of who it is that did the writings…. and how they were redacted, but what I want to discuss at this point is for those that say that it is the work of God, that God had a personal hand in making sure that these words got to mankind, whether those having this view… of the entire collection…. see any reason to discredit the specifics that we do have in the writings.
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
I would say Paul and the early Church Fathers wanted to make Jeshoua into the Messiah of the old testament. They found passages from Isaiah and others to justify/rationalize their furthering a belief system.
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
I am sorry Denise but one must read Zarathustra to understand the Abrahamic religions.
One must read and understand Egyptian text to understand the writings of the OT. One must understand history and the intertwining of civilizations to make sense of the multiple stories. One must understand the multiple stories and their oral traditions to see the Bible is just a scrapbook or history book. |
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, Lady, I understand and many others don’t either… but what I want to focus this discussion on is to try to gain some understanding how it is that those like Janet and those in the blog that this discussion originated from, see things the way that they do about what is actually written in the pages of the bible. For as I’ve mentioned many times in my discussions… I see no way to reconcile the idea that any God had a hand in either writing or preserving something that was to be given to mankind for mankind to know so much about and have it not be taken as it is written, no matter what has happened to the writings or who wrote them, how can any God have a hand in getting what we have to us today… in the form of the bible… and have it be ignored, rejected, and discredited by the ones that say that they believe that God’s very hand was the one making sure that we got it…. and what we got has any validity or credibility, or should be trusted.
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
denise said
Well no one needs to convince another of the personal hand of God in anything.
One can not into conflict with the “divine inspired” Bible.Belief is unique and personal. I find some beauty in the Bible and other texts. BUT it is no one’s business what I hold as my inner/personal truth. I do not have the right to influence the spiritual journey of another. |
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, Lady, I understand and would welcome you to share a link to your blog “the Lie of my Imperfection” here as well if you’d like.I also understand as I’ve mentioned how the “hearkening to the voices of another’ those “generational conditioning” has caused a “strong delusion to come upon people that they should believe a lie”…. yet it was when I realized that so much of that “generational/traditional conditioning” was not supported in the pages of the bible, as it is written in the first place.
What I’ve found is that so many that believe that they are sinful from infancy, as is everyone else…. has been convinced of this, as I was at one point in my own life, as the result of “hearkening to the voice of another” in the first place. I find nothing at all in the writings in the bible that support this concept… nor in the evidence of humanity as a whole either. That is why I want to have discussions with those that see things this way.. to understand how it is that they have come to these ways of thinking in the first place… and how it is that in light of what the bible actually states, as it is written…. that one would have to question whether we are able to take it as it is written…. (realizing that it doesn’t support this idea at all) or we’re to discount it and whoever wrote what’s in it…. to accept some traditional/generational conditioning that has seemingly convinced a lot of people to believe that way. |
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
Lady, I agree and have no problems with what you’re saying here… but what I want to understand from those that have said that the bible that we have today is and has been carefully preserved to have come to us from the very hand of God so that mankind could/would know what it is that God would have us to do, whether they think that it should be taken as it is written…. or that one is to discount what the writers share to follow traditions/generational conditioning instead.This discussion with Janet, and the reason that I wanted to continue the discussion with Janet and those in the original blog that Doc started that are the ones that had stated clearly that it is their belief that the bible is a divine work of God, given to mankind by God himself, and how it is that if this is the case… the way they believe it to be so…. whether one should take it as it is written… or if God didn’t get it right, and there is something in there that God didn’t have a hand in or left out or that didn’t know about at the time…. so its to be discarded, and rejected.
Personally, I can’t understand how one could attribute the bible we have today to the hand of God, meaning that God himself, with all the attributes that so many are convinced that God has, would have put together something and preserved it and passed it on to mankind for us to know something from.. and know what is expected…. and yet have the writings not be able to be taken as they are written. Why change something and say that it doesn’t mean that… or that this one didn’t mean what he was saying or that its not to be trusted if one genuinely believes that his/her God has been responsible for the collection that we have today… no matter who wrote it or what it states, mean something that no one can read and understand… or that we have to have others tell us what it means as if the God that wants this known to us has been so inept in being able to preserve it and communicate it to mankind in whatever means necessary for that communication to be trustworthy and reliable. |
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, I agree again with you Lady…. not only does it go against what I can read in the pages in the bible’s writings … but yet that is what so many have been convinced of and continue to try to convince others about, which is what I want to explore in this discussion. How is it that any of us came to this idea and where did the idea or belief originate in the first place.
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
denise said
http://irishgall13.multiply.com/journal/item/337/The_Lie_of_Our_ImperfectionFrom the very beginning of our lives, we have been a pack of lies and conditioned to believe them.
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
denise said
In the world that is moving so fast…….so tremendously fast, many want something concrete to hang onto. If an individual had to really look at the historical finds/archaeological discoveries of the last 60 years, a person would have to do some real critical thinking and research the information coming out today.
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, again I agree Lady…. however, we have to also realize that there are and have been many in our society today that do these things. They do make it a point to try to influence others and have for many generations now…. all even in direct opposition to what I can read for myself from the pages of the bible, and many of the religious texts that so many base these things on.What I want to understand is from the point of those that not only make the claim of their own personal belief being that God had a personal hand in writing the bible, whether or not one should take it as written, or not…. and what it is that has convinced them personally of this point. I want to also understand which can be a topic of another blog… is how it is that for those that claim this to be their personal belief, can reconcile those beliefs with the passages in the bible that seem to contradict the idea of anyone doing so, when taken as they are written.
So for me personally, its not my attempt to try to influence anyone and surely not to change whatever personal path that they have chosen for themselves or to have whatever they share with me influence my own…. I personally don’t think that is possible to be done…. that it will happen only when it’s meant to… but that’s another blog topic as well. LOL What I do want to understand and discuss the view of others on the points that they make… on the claims that they openly make and how they arrived at them. What I’ve come to see time and time again in having open discussions like this… is that we can all begin to see and realize just how much “conditioning” we have been influenced by… how it started and where it started…. and have a clearer understanding/awareness of it and it’s application in whatever path one has chosen for himself/herself. 🙂 |
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denise wrote on Feb 7, ’11
irishgall said
From the very beginning of our lives, we have been a pack of lies and conditioned to believe them. Thank you for sharing this link here Lady…. ♥
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irishgall wrote on Feb 7, ’11
denise said
If one wants to understand the concepts of the Abrahamic tribes, one must read Zarathustra and Zorastrianism first.
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gabriel wrote on Feb 8, ’11
Hi Denise,I had asked you if we should take the Bible just as it is written
Your answer was …..”No.. that’s a question that I’m asking …. Janet… I want to understand how it is that people see that we have the writings and what they say and whether they should be read as they are written… or if what they say should be totally disregarded as if not valid.” So in fact you are saying the scriptures should be read exactly as they are..Is this correct? |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
gabriel said
I had asked you if we should take the Bible just as it is written Your answer was …..”No.. that’s a question that I’m asking …. Janet… I want to understand how it is that people see that we have the writings and what they say and whether they should be read as they are written… or if what they say should be totally disregarded as if not valid.” So in fact you are saying the scriptures should be read exactly as they are..Is this correct?
Janet, please answer the question for yourself. You are one of those in the original blog that stated that YOU believe the bible was given to mankind by the divine hand of God, and yet each time that I pointed out a direct passage from the bible, you said that it did not mean that, or that we are not to take the verses as they are written, but that we are to follow traditions that are not at all identified in the bible at all.So please answer the question for yourself. I don’t think anyone that has read the original post that I made at Doc’s site would have any question as to where it is that I stand on this point…. however I’m not the one that made the claim that the bible we have today was preserved by the very hand of God, and that it is for what we need to know what God would want mankind to know and do…..and then want to reject and discount so much of what is actually written in its pages.
So tell me, since you stated you believe the bible is from God, and that God had a hand in it being available to mankind today whether or not it is to be taken as it is written…. or not. As I stated, and continue to state… I want to understand how it is that people WHO THEMSELVES claim THEY believe the bible we have today comes from the very hand of God to mankind, whether or not it should be read as it is written, each author taken as the writings say, or whether it should be totally disregarded as if not really valid at all. As I also provided several examples for you to respond to…. I want to understand what it is that YOU have said about what YOU believe… or others like yourself that have made these claims about what the bible is based on what you BELIEVE it to be…. and whether or not one should take the bible writers as it is written… or discount the entire collection as being invalid. As I also stated before, and will repeat again… it makes no sense to me at all for a person to claim to believe that God had his hand in bringing to us what we have today in the bible, and not to take it as it is written, and without changing what it says or rejecting what it says to follow traditions of men. So I want to understand how YOU and others that have made this claim about the bible, say on whether it is to be taken as it is written… or is it to be disregarded as if not valid. So as I’ve told you many, many times before… I see no reason to alter, add to, or take away from the passages in the bible as we have them today. The writers either speak for themselves and can be trusted to convey to their readers whatever it is that they would have someone to know… or what someone writing in their name, wanted someone to know of their own lives and experiences….. or they are not to be trusted at all… no matter who wrote them or what they say. As I’ve also pointed out, when Paul is shown to record who it is that he was speaking to, where they were and who they were…. I see no reason to say it was a lie, and that Paul was really addressing you and I alive today. That is discounting what the writer is shown to have said in specifics and I see no reason to think that any God would want mankind to know something and then write it down incorrectly or specify in detail who these things were said to, where they were and all those details to have them totally rejected and applied to people that they do not name, and who were not there in those days. So again… I’m asking you…. who says you believe that God himself had a hand in getting these passages into the bible and to mankind today… do we take them as they are written…. or discount the entire collection as being invalid and not to be trusted IN YOUR VIEW???? |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11, edited on Feb 8, ’11
gabriel said
God Bless Janet…. you have not offered YOUR answer to the questions and comments that you made on the original blog which Doc closed down. I had asked you numerous times in the original blog and have here as well to share YOUR answer to the question.So if you have no answer for yourself and your own beliefs and statements… that’s fine…. but you’re the one that made the original comments that I have asked you about NUMEROUS times and you’ve yet to answer for yourself.
So please either share your own views on what YOU have stated, as I’ve asked you to do….. and others to do that have those same views….. or end the discussion because you can’t or won’t explain whether YOU believe the bible is to be taken as it is written. It’s that simple…. 🙂 |
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gabriel wrote on Feb 8, ’11
Denise…the reason I asked you the qustion is for me to know exactly where you are coming from. When I first asked you..your answer..was “No” then you went on to say….”I want to understand how it is that people see that we have the writings and what they say and whether they should be read as they are written… or if what they say should be totally disregarded as if not valid.”So I asked you again just to make sure you were saying that the scriptures should be read exactly as they are…..Still you didn’t answer me. So what’s the point in discussing anything if you are avoiding this simple question? A simple yes or no would have done.
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gabriel wrote on Feb 8, ’11
By the way you do know my beliefs already…In order to read the scriptures we need to understand the literal sense and the spiritual sense.The apostles revealed the meanings of many of their teachings..but that was only a very small part and only what was needed for salvation
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
gabriel said
Janet, but the point of me asking YOU time and time again about these points is to know where YOU are coming from on this.In the original blog, time and time again you are the one that said YOU believe the bible to be given by God to man, that God himself has preserved the bible so that mankind would know what it is that we are to do and not to do… but each time that I posted something from the pages of the bible, you said that it didn’t mean that or that it was not to be followed, that the traditions were to be followed instead. So I asked you how it is that YOU can say YOU believe that God had any hand in the writings that we have in the bible, and whether they are to be taken as they are written.
I have not said “NO” to the question that I’m asking YOU…. I’ve asked you REPEATEDLY now to share YOUR view on this question because of what YOU have said. I want to understand how it is that YOU see them because YOU say that YOU believe that God has had a hand in getting them to us….. so do we read them as they are written …. or NOT??? |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
gabriel said
Again Janet, you are trying to make this about me… and claim that I’ve not answered the question that I’ve asked TO YOU… when you have not and will not answer it with a simple yes or not for YOURSELF. You are expecting others to do what you yourself refuse to do… and then say that there is no point in having a discussion with me, or that I’ve avoided something when YOU are the one that is refusing to answer the question and have done so time and time again now.A simple answer of yes or no would is what you have still not been willing to give Janet…. so do we take the bible as it is written or not….. ?????
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11, edited on Feb 8, ’11
The concept that the Bible was given by God to man, is very interesting.
There are numerous concepts that are from other cultures. Creation, flood, good and evil, angels, resurrection, and on and on……come from Zarathustra. Many sayings of the new testament are word for word from Egyptian texts. For Jeshua never said he was the son of God, trinity, etc came well after his life and in the development of another religion.Do I take the Bible as solemn gospel truth? No. I see the Bible as just a scrapbook of many justifications/rationalizations/plagarisms/ from many civilizations before the Abrahamic religions. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
gabriel said
No.. I don’t Janet.. that is why I’ve asked you this repeatedly. What I know is this… from what you have stated. (Please correct anything that is not what you actually have stated already in the blog at Doc’s site)1. You said that God had a personal hand in getting to us the verses that we have in the pages of the bible we have today.
2. You said that you believe that God preserved what we have in the pages of the bible today for mankind to know what it is that he is to do and not to do. 3. You said that you believe that the bible we have today is the “scriptures” that is reference in the verse about “instruction in righteousness, teaching, correction, rebuke and reproof” Yet when I posted something directly from the KJV of the bible…. you said that it was not to be taken as it is written, that one was not to take the writer or writings as they are written, but that one is to let someone else tell us what it means or follow the traditions of Christianity that teach and have taught for years against those very passages. So that is why I have asked you repeatedly now to answer the question as to whether YOU see that the bible is to be taken as it is written….. or not… because you are saying one thing… and then saying something to contradict it the next, while claiming that you believe that God had a hand in preserving it and bringing it to mankind today in the manner in which we have it…. and I want to understand from YOU whether in YOUR VIEW we are to take the bible as it is written….. or not?? |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
The concept of “inspired” by God or take it on “faith” is also interesting.
There can be no rational discussion of what I said above because it will always get bogged down the God said so. The church was very effective in this fashion because to question the validity was to be a heretic. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
gabriel said
But the question still remains… do we take the bible as it is written…. or not?? Do we trust what the apostles are shown to have written that we have in the pages of the bible… as it is written… or not? Can the bible be trusted to convey to us what it is that those writers wanted anyone to know… or do we disregard what is written in the pages of the bible as it is written???
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, Lady, I agree.. since there is no prophet that ever spoke of a time that such would happen…. that God would appoint men to pick and choose what was to be included in a collection of writings, that would then be published, translated, distributed and shared with mankind for mankind to know what it is that is to be done or not done.It also goes in stark contradiction to what the writers of the collection also state, for none of them speak of reading any writings before their time, nor having any preachers, teachers, pastors, etc.. telling them any of the things that they wrote of or about in those writings.
So not only is this concept a very interesting one that seems to totally contradict all the writers and what they say in the pages of the bible as well, but there are those that do have this belief…. do claim that this is the case according to them, and yet so often seem to totally reject what those writers have written, as it is written… and that’s the point that I want to understand from those that have such a belief. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, again an excellent point in making Lady. As you have pointed out, there are so many things that are not recorded in the pages of the bible that have come along much later…. which again goes to the point of whether or not to take the bible as it is written or not??
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Thank you Lady for sharing this answer…. however… what I want to understand is from those that have first made the claim to have a belief that it has come to us from the very hand of God, or that God preserved it and seen to it that it has come to mankind so that mankind could know what was to be done and not…. for there are many that seem to believe this about the bible…. and yet seem to discount so much of it…. or won’t answer whether it is to be taken as written or not…. which is why I want to understand from them how they see this point in light of their own professions/belief.
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
I have said this before. The Torah (first five books of OT) were written by five writers. Are all them inspired? They all had there own view of priestly, Yahwehist, Elohimist and then the redactor wrote and filled in the blanks.
Honestly, this is truth. Rabbinic scholars have said this for ages about the Book of Moses. One must understand the history of the times surrounding Jeshoua and Christianity. The fall of the Temple in Jerusalem had a direct coordination with the development of Christianity by Paul.One has to look at the origins of any belief system they embrace. To blanket say I have faith is not enough for me. But I accept your view on this. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, Lady… I agree… however when I read the bible, there is nothing that seems to be taken on “faith’ in the sense of any blind faith at all. The writings we have in the bible today, indicate that “faith” was not what people had blindly, but was the direct result of what they knew, or some knowing that they had and seeing it happen with sufficient evidence in their own lives to produce for them a trust in that knowing.I also agree that having a discussion on these points is often difficult because the church has seen and taught that to question the validity of any of it was to be a heretic, and yet again… where they got that idea from IMHO, is not from the pages of the bible either.
It’s the same idea with those that say that if something is not found in the pages of the bible to have been said of God to someone else, then it is not God and should be considered to have been said by Satan, and therefore rejected, yet reading the bible, there is no where that the writers record doing that themselves, for there were no writings that they ever mention having to read to make such a determination from in the first place. So again, I want to understand from those that have made the statement of their own beliefs being that God had a hand in the bible we have today…. whether it is to be taken as it is written…. or not. For that in itself once answered would seem to indicate whether one really honestly believes that their God had a personal hand in the writings we have today…. or not. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
With a careful examination of the writings that we have in those five books, it was pretty clear to me, without having to have anyone else tell me, that they were written by someone other than Moses. For they contain events that happened before Moses own birth and well after his own death. So to take them as they are written, at least for me made that point pretty clear and obvious.I also find that once again, taking them as they were written, one would understand that they are the writers own personal views, their own understanding of things in their own time, and impacted by whatever changes that have been made to them all the way to the point we have them in today.
Which again is why I ask those with the belief that God had a personal hand in getting these writings to us whether they are to be taken as they are written…. or not… because as they are written … makes these point very obvious, or at least it has to me. |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
Mohammed said the Quran was divinely inspired……….Okay in the Quran is differences with the OT. Namely, Ishamael was sacrificed by Abraham and not Issac. ITS DIVINELY INSPIRED.The Book of Mormon is said to be divinely inspired…….
Does this mean that everyone puts a stamp of God inspired on a book and it makes it more valid? Mozart said he woke up and was divinely inspired to write his music. I think the question is What IS divinely inspired? |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, again I agree with you here Lady…. I understand that there are those that have make a blanket statement of “faith” in some of these things, and its not enough for me either…. I want to understand though their view on the things that they say for themselves, and accept that it is their view of them. I’m not asking or mandating that anyone change their view on anything… I know that it won’t happen, nor should it until they are ready for that to happen…. but I do want to understand why they have the views that they do… and discuss them and how they came by them… for that’s how IMHO, we gain understanding… 🙂
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
I also find that once again, taking them as they were written, one would understand that they are the writers own personal views, their own understanding of things in their own time, and impacted by whatever changes that have been made to them all the way to the point we have them in today. What most individuals don’t understand is the OT is to be read four ways. This is admitted with the Jews and the mystic Kabbalists.
Take it literally, metaphorically, allegory and the secret in between the words.Example: Beloved Rachel died and left at the side of the road while giving birth to Benjamin (Genesis 35:20). The rabbis have always been troubled by the non completion of this…for Rachel was the beloved of Jacob and the mother of Joseph. Literally its an awful commentary on a fine matriarch. But if you consider her burial, Issac’s sacrifice by Abraham and the Temple are on the same place………….it makes more sense. Sorry I am just trying to expound on sometimes faith is not enough. Critical thinking is required. |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
Sorry, Denise, this will never happen because the faith card will be played. At that point, you have to be wrong.
I find more beauty in the learning of many religious beliefs in civilizations and understanding how they became incorporated in our present thought.I would say the problem with this whole “faith” and “inspired” comes from the Book of Acts onward. But then again one never even knows what Jeshoua said was truth or redacted. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
The Book of Mormon is said to be divinely inspired……. Mozart said he woke up and was divinely inspired to write his music. I think the question is What IS divinely inspired? Yes… Lady.. excellent point! I think we have to back up and give some consideration to what “divinely inspired” means to those that have used the term and what they tell us in their own writings that it meant or didn’t.This is another point that so many believing that the entire bible is “scripture” and that it all has come from God, “divinely inspired” have to say… that the bible speaks for itself that it gives by itself the definition or understanding of what is meant in its own pages without any other source being necessary.
Yet when the writers of the OT are recorded to have heard from the mouth of God the things that they wrote of, and “scriptures being by inspiration” (breathe or mouth of God) as one writer refers to them…. most seem to not make the connection of what is being said, as it is written, because the term “inspired” is used. Yet if the bible it to, as many say, define within its own pages these things…. if we take the writings as they are written, they do… yet even those that make the claim don’t accept what it shows for itself. So for example.. when beginning with Adam the bible records people having heard from the mouth of God what is written of… and the entire OT writers speaking of hearing from the mouth of God…. then when a writer says that the “scriptures” which in his own day would have been the OT writings, were “inspired by God”, (from the mouth of God, breathed by God, and all the other definitions that have been given to the term “inspired”) the bible seems to within its own pages simply record that the writer knew them to be the records of people that say they heard what they did from the mouth of God. It is how it was recorded that they knew what they did… and the writer in the NT seems to be echoing the same thing as being his own understanding of the writings that he knew to be “scripture” in his own day. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
I am so with you on this…. ♥
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Lady, I understand this… but to me, and maybe only to me.. it’s not about being right or wrong. I understand that when a person is faced with questions that many times someone has to be right and the other wrong… and when the faith card is played, meaning that one is having his own faith challenged, many times if his/her thinking is that their faith is not to be challenged for questioned, then the person seen to be doing so is seen to be “wrong” for doing that.. when that wasn’t the intention.
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, so do I, and one of the ways that I come to understand this, is to have discussions like this … asking people that have various views that are incorporated in our present thoughts, how it is that they come by them… what their own understanding of them are, and why they have those understandings/beliefs.So many however, seem to think that if there is a difference at all in their beliefs and that of another… that one has to be right and the other wrong….or that one is right because it started before another, or wrong because it was started later. Its amazing and shares a lot about us when we examine them and discuss them…. IMHO. 🙂
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
Inspired by God…..what does that mean exactly? Does that mean that the writings as well as the behavior was inspired by God?
Sounds like the God was one of vengeance, the Israelites justified their bad behavior because they were the inspired/chosen, and today the Bible is used to rationalize all kinds of actions.Just some thoughts…..I see if you really think this is the word of the Lord, you would live the word, walk the word and be the word. Out on a limb again………..Each individual is inspired by God, made of God spark and are divine. One doesn’t need a creed, a book, or a church to understand we are all here from the inspired word and action of the Eternal. PERIOD. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, I can see the same situation being the case by careful examination of what is in the writings we have today. What is attributed to being said and done by Jesus, poses a stark contrast to what is shown going on after the Book of Acts in many cases.What we also never know is whether any of what is in the page is what really was said and done…. or not. Many claim to believe that they are, and have taken them on “faith” to be, having belief that God has had a hand in making sure that we have accurate accounts, etc….. and yet when one carefully examines what is written in the pages as they are…. it seems that if God did have a hand in getting these writings to us as we have them today…. then how is it or why would it be that they are not to be taken as they are written?? Would God allow anyone to redact them to the point that they were not accurate?? Would there be anything that God would want humanity to know that would be omitted from the pages we have? These are questions that have to be considered, IMHO, by anyone that has a stated belief about the bible we have today.
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes ma’am… LOL
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
Allow??? Humans have free will. This is why we are in such a mess.
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calum wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
In my case Denise, most views come to me in the small hours, when so many thoughts just pour in. Often though there is a trigger. I got one last night when I watched Alan Davies on Maths. That started it – first questions in my own mind, and then as I was waking up, so much poured in.I need to put this together, for my own benefit, in a text which I can then post in a thread.
But just to tantalise you, did you know that there is a four dimensional structure in Paris? It is huge and people are like ants standing at and in the bottom of it. What do you know about Riemann’s graph on prime numbers matching reverberations in a sphere? Then there is Bode’s Law which shows that our planetary system has a mathematical progression and yet planets found in other stars as far as we can ascertain at the moment, do not fit in with this Law. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Well for me… when taking the writings as we have them… it is simply what each of those writers are saying that they heard from God themselves about situations and things going on in their own time, and with the understanding that they had of all those things in their own day. Its like with the ten commandments… the writer states who it was that those commandments were to be given to, and why, and yet does not mention anything about them being given to anyone else…. and yet once again we either take the writings as we have them…. or we don’t is the question. IF the writer says those commandments were to be given to those that were lead out of Egypt that were there in the wilderness…. then why would anyone discount that writing and say that they were to be for anyone other than who the writer says in the writings they were for???
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
I did a sermon on the historical Jesus. So I had an extensive research on the life and times of Jeshoua.
And I visited rabbis and had discussions and the temple opened their extensive library to me.I found it very interesting that many say inspired but are unwilling to do homework. Like who are the Sadduces, Pharisees? What is Mount Sinai? Gethsemane? History of the Temple post and pre Jeshoua. Many who take the Bible on faith and inspiration are really missing some critical thinking and delving into many possibilities and falsehoods. A wonderful example of this falsehood is their was no Sanhedrin during the high holidays. Hence no Jeshoua trial. AH CALUM joined……..I am in trouble here. |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
calum said
What do you know about Riemann’s graph on prime numbers matching reverberations in a sphere? Then there is Bode’s Law which shows that our planetary system has a mathematical progression and yet planets found in other stars as far as we can ascertain at the moment, do not fit in with this Law. I believe you are talking about the pyramid structure in the courtyard of the Louvre. Would be interesting to take a note of the latitude and longtitude.The prime number graph etc…is something WinterHawk would know about.. He has a video on vortex which talks about this.
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
How could it really be any other way? If a person is professing himself to believe in Jesus, to believe in the bible, to believe that the bible is the words of his/her own God, and that this same God has given these writings to be lived by…. then why would anyone honestly believing this … not do so?Like with Jesus Christ… if as many Christians profess…. that God sent Jesus.. that Jesus is the Son of God, that the entire OT speaks of Jesus, that he came and gave his life to die for the sins of that person…. and the OT law of Moses was that it was to be upon the mouth of two or three that a matter is to be established, and the only writings we have in the entire collection of the bible that are reported to have come to us today on this standard are those of Jesus Christ, then why in the world would anyone claiming to believe this for himself not be following them himself.. no matter who else did or didn’t??
Would a person really go against those teachings and be seen doing so and teaching others to do so if they really did believe these words to be from their GOD to mankind through Jesus Christ?? |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
Oh my was this God talking to them or their higher self or their guardians?
The ancients had yet to develop the concept of so above/so below. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Well you’re obviously not the only one that is out on that limb… but the point is that according to the writings we have in the bible, again at least to me when I’ve read them as they are written… it seems to echo this very point and to have been the same thing that so many of those writers seem to be conveying as well… for none of them in the OT are shown to have been reading anything, having any books, creeds, churches, etc teaching them these things…. and in fact, the New Covenant in the bible states that “they will not be taught one of another nor teaching one another, saying know the Lord”…. for all would know from the least to the greatest. 🙂
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11, edited on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
OH they are commandments? Pick it apart according to history. Moses wanted a cohesive community who would follow and be the chosen of Yahweh. So the commandments kept the weary doubtful people behind.
I long ago was taught by the Kabbalists that the 10 commandments are virtues to be attained. Meaning take the 1st and 5th, 2nd and 6th etc. and look for the virtue. For God is good and loving and virtues are your guides and helps in your lifetime. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Understand…what I meant by that is that if I honestly believed that God had his own hand in whatever it is that we have in the bible today…. and it was preserved by God, as many believe, so that mankind would know what it is that God wanted us to do or not to do…. then what sense would it make to have God let anyone, no matter who they were or what redacting they did, alter or in any way change what mankind was to know and then have this same GOD punish with eternity in hell someone that didn’t know what he was to do or not do in the first place, because it got redacted??? I mean what sense would that make??
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calum wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Malcolm: LOL. I may point out things which I know from solid facts and irrefutable evidence, but I am not a judge. You are. We all have to judge ourselves at the end. If truth is ignored then you have to recognise that and be prepared to live through another life to repeat the lessons.All I will say at this point is not to believe anyone without checking carefully yourself, especially a body of people who have based their whole way of life on teachings from ancients whom we can now see were in the main out of their heads and heavily biased. Most of them were hung up with an utter hatred of Egypt and they allow this to flow on through the centuries and influence their lives today. Those long dead scribes perpetrated terrible lies which corrupt young minds and cause the turmoil we see today in the Middle East.
Today we have to keep updating our computers fairly regularly to keep up with extended memories and new systems. Imagine trying to get by today with an old XT, pre Windows computer. Religion really needs to be erased completely and re-booted with new and true knowledge. I would strongly recommend Lady that you erase the various virii given you by those so-called ‘teachers’. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
calum said
Yes, Malcolm, I understand this… and have the same thing happen many times as well. You make a very interesting point though here… that you point out that what started it… first questions in your own mind! I find this to be so many times what triggers the pouring in. Like is recorded in the bible.. “seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you”… but when we are not willing to question things…or think that if we do its wrong, then we limit what comes to us. Yet I also know that there are things that come … without any questions… without having thought about it.. and yet there it is. 🙂
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
calum said
But just to tantalise you, did you know that there is a four dimensional structure in Paris? It is huge and people are like ants standing at and in the bottom of it. What do you know about Riemann’s graph on prime numbers matching reverberations in a sphere? Then there is Bode’s Law which shows that our planetary system has a mathematical progression and yet planets found in other stars as far as we can ascertain at the moment, do not fit in with this Law. Sounds amazing Malcolm…. please do and when you post it in a thread… share a link here for those reading along so they can see more of what you have to share on this.As for me personally…. I don’t “know” in specifics of the details you’re outlining here…. but you know me… I’m open for hearing all about it.. and what you’re willing to share on it.
I also “know” that there are a lot of things that we haven’t ascertained at the moment…. ♥ |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Awesome… do you have a transcript of that sermon posted on your site here in Multiply? I’d love to read it.
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
OH MY…….This is so redacted. Paul in order to start a religion with Jeshoua as the son of God had to make him the Messiah and justify/rationalize the OT to suit this purpose. Rabbinical studies will say the same thing as the Jews were in diaspora because of the temple’s destruction.Redemption, salvation and everlasting life is a Zorastrian concept, Egyptian tenet, Essene creed and adopted by the Christians to suit their purposes.
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes.. I agree… that was my own “issue” for a while. I had been brought up not to question anything about the bible… and even though that didn’t sit well with my “nature” and I did… I got into a lot of “trouble” many times for doing so and asking questions. Seems I do that still today. LOL
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
What in your estimation is the New Covenant?
The Golden Rule is Moses, Hillel and Jeshoua which is nothing new or innovated. I never understood what the New Covenant is. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
AH CALUM joined……..I am in trouble here. Yes…. Lady… and yet without doing some investigation for oneself, or being open to questioning so much of what so many have “banked” their lives upon, one won’t “know” and yet the bible writers all echo that its to be about “knowing”…P.S. Malcolm knows well that you’re not in trouble with me… LOL
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Excellent point Lady… 🙂
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calum wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
calum said
All I will say at this point is not to believe anyone without checking carefully yourself, Well said Malcolm… well said! ♥This might be the reason that so many get offended by what others say when it doesn’t agree with where they are in their own thinking in the moment in which they hear it. They reject it before they have done their own checking carefully of it themselves…. or simply because it isn’t in agreement with what one knows at the moment.
Yet for me personally, to reject something because I don’t agree with it in the moment in which I hear it is to assume that I know all there is to know about all things and that is not the case at all. LOL Also to reject something being shared without doing some checking on it for myself, is to be willing to “hearken to the voice of another” and take their word on something and look where that’s got so many of us in the past and still have us…. despite the bible and Christianity teaching most of us for years that doing so was considered to the be the “downfall” of mankind… and what sense would that make anyway? LOL So yes, Malcolm.. we all need to be checking things out carefully for ourselves…. and deciding for ourselves what is truth… and what isn’t and also to take into consideration that there is always more to be known! ♥ |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11, edited on Feb 8, ’11
I was just kidding Calem. Actually, your contrary analysis has challenged me to keep looking for more knowledge.
I mean no offense………no offense intended. If I was a closed person, I would feel attacked and call you all kind of names to solidify the truth I have. I long ago have realized that humanity is complicated………very complicated |
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calum wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
I know that, and whatever a friend writes it is interesting to see where they are coming from. Incidentally I only use Calum because my first internet provider wouldn’t allocate Malcolm, so I decided on the origin of my name. Well part of it. In full It would be Maol Calum. But I’m not bald nor a priest, LOL. They hadn’t thought of letting us add numbers to our names at that time.
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calum wrote on Feb 8, ’11
My reply, Lady is somewhere above. I’m not sure I like the way Multiply puts our replies right under the comment. I find it hard to navigate a blog when it gets lengthy, and comments are all over the place.Yes it really is complicated, and this is all due to the lack of universal understanding which is imposed on us, so that we can learn individually.
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
I’m with you on this point Lady….even though the bible records Jeremiah saying that it would be when “God” wrote in the hearts and minds his laws and that people would not be teaching one another… it wasn’t anything “new” to what the writings in the bible say was going on from the “beginning”….Yet today, there are those that believe that Jesus ushered in a New Covenant, that was outlined in the prophet Jeremiah, and echoed in the book of Hebrews, yet reject what the bible writing say about it… who it was to be for.
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
As it should for us all… when we have contrary analysis, it should lead us all into more delving into knowledge… 🙂
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
The priest in me wants to say that we also have to respect each individuals spiritual journey whether simple or multifaceted and uniquely theirs.
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
Great share Malcolm.. thanks for the link!! I’ll also be waiting to read your follow up article on this.. and what you’ve come to “know” as well! 🙂
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
♥
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
calum said
Well I am not bald but I am a Melchizedek priest of the old sacred mystery schools.
I am open to the wonder of it all……………. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, I agree… :)What would also be a big help IMHO, is if people would not automatically seem to assume that anyone asking questions or posing contrary information was doing so in a manner in which to disrespect anyone, their views, spiritual journey, etc.
Where did we get the idea that it did in the first place would be my question? LOL |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Me either.. well not any more that is!!I am however like you Lady… open to the wonder of it all…..
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Can you share a bit more on this with me??
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11, edited on Feb 8, ’11
denise said
Where did we get the idea that it did in the first place would be my question? LOL In the words and concepts and interpretations of infidel, heretic, unpatriotic etc.
Words have connotations and judgements and dismissals of individuals as well as their ideas. |
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denise wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, if one allows those words to have such powers over them.For me personally, even though I’ve been called some of these names and worse, it is only disrespecting me if I allow them to affect me and give power to them within myself. What might even be the stated opinion of another against me, doesn’t mean that it is a disrespect to me, unless I allow it to be. ♥
Like Momma always said.. “stick and stones can break my bones, but words can never harm me”… |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
Hence we are back to the inspired word of God. The power of words and concepts to shape our thoughts and beliefs.
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calum wrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
I think that has always been the main problem with those who think they are ‘divinely’ inspired. So many jump to the conclusion that a wow feeling, or an inflow of new thoughts have to be coming from some god.We have to shake ourselves out of this misconception and realise that there is more to the Universe than an imaginary all powerful being. For example, the Israelites used the imaginary god to excuse all of their excesses, killing other people, taking land etc. Had they known then that there was no such thing but that all such intuitive thoughts come from a great common mind which we are all part of then those excuses are removed, and other different people would then have been afforded greater respect and friendship.
It is the god mind that has created the divisions and continuing turmoil. |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
calum said
Well said. You have inspired me to look at the Egyptians and their thoughts more thoroughly. I don’t have to understand all I read. I have to respect your knowledge and appreciate your views.Many will know that I believe God or the Eternal is an all powerful being but one who is within you. That love is the light and driving power of the universe. Thusly, I will treat self and others with kindness.
I don’t need a book, building, creed or doctrine to come to this conclusion. I don’t need to be inspired by anything but my own personal quest, understanding and wisdom that is inherent within my own being. |
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calumwrote on Feb 8, ’11
irishgall said
But it does help a lot and there is something fascinating about Egyptian hieroglyphs and how they work. Laird Scranton believes that they even tell us all about string theory.If you prefer something light, easy, colourful and full of other information about the Egyptian Life, then I recommend ‘Decoding Egyptian Hieroglyphs’ by Bridget McDermott.
But a good grammar also helps a lot and “How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs” by Mark Collier is excellent. This book not only takes you easily through what glyphs are letters and what have other meanings, but shows how kings names are put together. I have Easy Lessons in Egyptian Hieroglyphs by Budge as well, but this was a very early book and it would be hard to learn systematically from it. An entertaining book is 100 Hieroglyphs by Barry Kemp. This one has two or three pages on each of 100 glyphs that have a deeper meaning. There are stories attached to each hieroglyph and you can really learn a lot about the Egyptian people from this book. It is not a grammar in any way. I fully agree with you that Love and Light are two of the main driving elements of the spiritual world, but I would also add maths as the language, along with music and harmonics. Anyway this is what the crop circles are telling us – another subject I have examined in some detail in 29 threads. |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 8, ’11
Okay I have a question.
Are there any similarities of hieroglyphs and Hebrew? Great guns!! I went to the library and got The Egyptian Book of the Dead. And I am reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead right along side it.Call me just a seeker……..maybe I will get inspriation. HAHA |
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calum wrote on Feb 9, ’11
irishgall said
Hebrew letters are completely different, bearing no resemblance to hieroglyphs. However there are a remarkable number of words which are the same or very similar. A few authors have pointed this out, and I think Osman is one, Ellis another. I will try and find the relevant passages when I have time.This of course is to be expected since Egypt was full of Hebrew speaking people, including many of their kings. International correspondence seems to have been written in cuneiform – refer the Amarna Letters – clay tablets of letters found at Akhetaten.
Hebrew letters – 22 of them – are said to have come from shadows of light cast through the Serpent on top of the Great Pyramid. (Refer “The Secret in the Bible” by Tony Bushby). In the old Hebrew text there were no vowel sounds, similar to Egyptian, but they are added in the modern language. Ellis makes many comparisons between Egyptian and Hebrew in his books and this alone makes his books a good read. I think you will get little out of the Book of Coming Forth by Day, as it is really called. It is mainly a book of directions for the departed spirit to help it on its way through the Duat. The negative confessions are interesting and some of them are the source of the ten commandments. |
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irishgall wrote on Feb 9, ’11
I find the story/poetry of the Book of Coming Forth by Day very colorful and entertaining.
I know Hebrew so I was just wondering if I could convert this knowledge into Egyptian.Since we are on a blog of taking the bible as it is written…………….. Should I or we take some of this with a grain of salt also? |
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calum wrote on Feb 9, ’11
irishgall said
In that case you would get a lot from the books by Ralph Ellis as he knows both languages and they are full of comparisons.”Jesus Last of the Pharaohs” would probably be the best to start with. Then “Tempest & Exodus”. I also have his “Solomon Falcon of Sheba” but he is totally wrong with this and stretching everything to the limit to try and connect later kings with David and Solomon. Nevertheless this book led me to the Kebra Nagast, and there I found so much confirmation proving the identity of Solomon and King Twt.
One cannot take the Bible as it is written as it really is a mess. Apart from the thousands of errors and contradictions, and reconstructed history by the Hebrews, the time lines are wrong, and as you will see when you research more, the patriarchs were Egyptian Kings not of Galilee or Judaea which were only Egyptian colonies. |
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calum33 wrote on Feb 9, ’11
You can get Ralph’s books quite cheap. Have a look at Abe Books – http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=ralph+ellis&bt.x=140&bt.y=12&sts=t&tn=jesus+last+of+the+pharaohsThere are one or two available from US shops, but mostly in Britain. I was lucky as a South Australia wholesaler had a stock.
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irishgall wrote on Feb 9, ’11
calum said
I have the Kebra Nagast.
My point exactly was one can not read any “book” and not do their homework about the history, civilization and religious traditions of the time. |
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denise wrote on Feb 9, ’11
irishgall said
Yes, I agree… and one also can’t take a collection of various writers/writings, even though they are in the same “collection” and treat them if the same writer has written them all and they are in some chronological order or are the continuation of one story. That would be like going to the library and thinking that all the books in that collection are talking about the same thing and are by the same writer. One must do his homework on anything one reads for sure! ♥That is what I did with the bible for myself… upon careful study of what it actually has in the writings, I was able to see that so many of the things that Christianity had taught me about those writings were not at all what they stated. So taking what was written in the pages of it, revealed a whole lot to me….
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irishgall wrote on Feb 9, ’11
Well Calem had an epiphany two nights ago. I had mine last night. I missed it……..I always knew Leviticus was about preserving bloodlines. I should have and will take it farther. There is some truth in the Bible which I have to sift through. Honor has said I should look at the bloodlines of the Jewish race.
Well I am off to put together a puzzle. |
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denise wrote on Feb 9, ’11
Yes, Lady… the bible does a lot in the way of what I call “speaking for itself” when one reads it as it is written. It also goes a long way toward making a lot of other things known from what writings we have when one takes the time to research what the original terms were that were translated into the “english” versions we have today. But again… that requires one doing his own homework.For me, when I started my own examination of the bible, was when I realized that I could no longer make a profession of believing anything about the bible, no matter what I had been taught without having some first hand understanding of it. For surely if this was the words of God to mankind, (as I too had been taught) then I surely needed to know every word that was in those pages and do so without altering them, changing them, etc…. to take them “as they are written”. 🙂
Enjoy your puzzle.. and thanks for the contribution…. looking forward to chatting with you more later! 🙂 |
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denise wrote on Feb 9, ’11
calum said
Apart from the thousands of errors and contradictions, and reconstructed history by the Hebrews, the time lines are wrong, and as you will see when you research more, the patriarchs were Egyptian Kings not of Galilee or Judaea which were only Egyptian colonies. But the point though Malcolm, how else is one to see this for himself/herself if we don’t take the bible as it is written?? I know for myself, had I not taken the bible as it is written… examined each writing that is in the pages of it for myself… there would have been no way possible, other than to take someone else’s word on it, for me to have seen or come to understand any of these things for myself.It is only when a person, especially one that has been a part of the religion of Christianity, believing the bible to be the words of God to mankind, or anything at all to do with his own God…. and examining it carefully that these things can be seen first hand.
Most seem to think that anyone challenging the bible is doing so to tear down their belief system, or speak against their “God” for many see that the bible is the only God they know and without what is in those writings, there would be no God at all. Yet it takes a careful examination of the bible, and what its writers say, to see that it never was to be about any writings in the first place.. nor any form of “hearkening to the voice of another” in matters pertaining to God. This very thing was shown in the opening pages of the bible to be what Christianity has taught for many years to be the downfall of mankind and the very thing that separates man from God to begin with … and yet they don’t seem to realize that reading the pages of the bible, and thinking that to follow what is in its pages for themselves is doing the same thing as they say was the reason for “sin to enter the world” from the beginning. So for the person that has his entire life banked on what is in the pages of the bible… it does take a careful examination of what it actually states, as it is written…. and a little homework on ones own to see what it is that one has done or continues to do in trusting in the writings, is going against them and what they share in the first place. I mean if one really believes that the bible in the book of Genesis tells us what caused sin to enter the world and man to be separated from this God was hearkening to the voice of another about what God has said to a person to do or not to do… what sense would it make to a person honestly believing this to be the case for them to “hearken to the voice” of any of those writers in the bible without realizing that they in doing so was repeating that same “similitude of Adam” to begin with? Yet it does take reading it as it is written… paying careful attention to what is actually written…. for a person to begin to see what you and I and many others have about the entire collection…. but more importantly, to realize what the “message” of the entire bible is to begin with. 🙂 |
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